From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 01/29/2011:  11:30:29

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After 20 years, I am improving, understanding how to play, and believing I will be able to eventually play a little bit.

I started with tab and have almost every Scruggs tab from Banjo Newsletter in a file. My plan was to learn all these songs from tab. I figured if I did this then learning to play would evolve. This didn’t work. It was boring. I would repeat parts over and over to try to memorize them. But it didn’t sound like anything – just a bunch of notes. And if I got a song memorized I had to play it frequently to keep it remembered.

Here are 3 things that happened that changed things for me:
1. Dave Magram on the hangout posted many many times about listening to Scruggs and trying to learn one line of a break a day. He stressed the work in listening. I could relate to this as I have taught tennis all my life and know can learn by watching a good shot a thousand times until you can see it in your head. When you can imagine it clearly, you can do it. Just follow the pictures.

2. I had read many good posts by John Boulding. He had often posted about learning and studying the fundamentals of Scruggs and getting a good foundation (as well as many other helpful posts). This message is a constant in the book Masters of the 5-String Banjo. Again from athletics I know how essential good fundamentals are. John posted that he was accepting students via Skype so I thought I would give it a try. I couldn’t get any worse. He took the time to explain to me how to use Skype. John is a great guy. I got a great deal on a good camera at Sam’s Club.

Now I am going to tell you I play bad. But John showed me how to take a phrase of a song and find the notes for it on the banjo as it is sung Word for Word and sometimes syllable by syllable, (Earl and John call it playing the words – some on the hangout say you can’t do it or it is too much if you do – Earl & John do it and it sounds great). Then John showed me how to make it Scruggs like interesting. He calls it putting Scruggisms in the song – incorporating slide, hammers pulls, spaces etc into the melody. He also showed me there were a lot of repeated patterns in different songs and that knowing this would allow me to use familiar building blocks to play different songs. Now when I listen to Scruggs, I have an idea how to put what I am hearing into context. He dispelled many bad notions I had.

In our lessons John starts each song from scratch and builds it to a Scruggs arrangement. I can see and hear the process and understand it. Like athletics again, keep your thinking small and do each little thing right and the big thing will take care of themselves.

John also talked to me about listening. He told me how he used to turn the old lps slowly by hand to listen to slower Scruggs. He told me of when he was a young pro and going from gig to gig being in the back of the van with headphones and his banjo and playing with Scruggs recordings note for note. Another added benefit of my listening is that my timing is getting better because when you listen to Scruggs or John play a break 50 times a day it has to rub off. You hear and feel the timing as well as the melody.


3. I got the Amazing Slowdowner which allowed me to hear clearly over and over what I was trying to do. I could see how each of Lester’s sung notes was played on the banjo. This software is easy to use. In trying to learn a new song first I get the words to it. Then I get to where I can play the melody on the banjo just as close as I can to Lester is singing it. Then I listen to the break slowed down over and over. Sometimes I listen 10 minutes to play 3 minutes trying to put each Scruggism in and be able to play it line by line. The chords seem to become apparent in doing this processes.

Last week I just couldn’t get a part of the song and I brought that to John in our weekly lesson. He listened to it and showed me what it was. He also went over my song for this week and gave me directions for it. I feel the more I go through this process this the faster I will become at putting a break together. I remembered what Pete Wernick said on a thread, “Any real banjo player can put a break together on the fly”. I think we all want to be there. To me learning banjo is like learning to speak a foreign language but this is the language of banjo and you have to hear it, try to respond to it, get corrected, and continually repeat this process till you can talk. Now when I am trying to play a song I don’t try to remember which finger to put where: instead I try to think of the melody.


In a few weeks I have gone from really bad to pretty bad. I am seeing progress and I have hope. Practice is more directed, fun and productive. I feel very fortunate to have come in contact with some of the great players on the hangout and am very appreciative of the experts like John Boulding, Dave Magram, Jody Hughes, and John Kuhn who have spent many hours reading and posting so the truth can be known. “He who has ears, let him hear”.

dflowers - Posted - 01/29/2011:  11:40:32

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Seek and you shall find. Valid to my way of thinking.

O.D. - Posted - 01/29/2011:  11:43:51

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Thats a great story Ken.
Im glad that some things are coming together for you.
Sometimes Its just a little something missing that can make all the difference.
Your teacher as well as the other folks you mentioned from the HO are a great source of info.
They make things a little easier for some of us on theBHO, whether they know or not.
Good Luck.
Regards, O.D.

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Edited by - O.D. on 01/29/2011 11:44:34

Blue Cheese - Posted - 01/29/2011:  11:46:03

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Cool stuff.

So, in recap. Listen, Slow it down, Listen, find the first couple of note on the banjo, repeat?

- L

banjofrog - Posted - 01/29/2011:  12:23:05

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I think you just helped me put some pieces of the puzzle together. Thanks for the post.
--Wayne

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 01/29/2011:  12:29:58

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Levi,
Listen and get the melody. Next slow it the break down and try to add the Scruggisms. Go in small chunks of wording like in The Old HOme Town the first line is Tonight my heart is lonely for the folks back home.

Start just getting "Tonight my"
Then"heart is",
and then add on " lonely" (and fill).
then get "for the"
then" folks back"
and then " home" and then the fill after that first line.
That where the easiest learning segments came to me.
Work out what roll and hammer slide ect you want for each section.
It makes a lot more sense when you see it being done rather than write about it. John told me he learned it by an old timer slowing a break way down and singing it to him and showing each melody note was apparent.
John does it and can show breaking it down note by note and how he approaches each one.
Ken

Hay Wayne, Thanks but I am a poor messenger there are a lot that can explain this more clearly.

OD, Thanks. Hope you are staying warm up there and your driveway is shoveled.

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Edited by - From Greylock to Bean Blossom on 01/29/2011 12:39:33

Blue Cheese - Posted - 01/29/2011:  13:31:33

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Thanks for the clarification. I'll talk to John about it too :)

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 01/29/2011:  13:55:48

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quote:

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Originally posted by Blue Cheese

Thanks for the clarification. I'll talk to John about it too :)

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Good Levi,
You almost have to hear it to feel how it works. It is hard to describe it in words. But when you hear it, it all makes sense.
John's the source.
Ken

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Edited by - From Greylock to Bean Blossom on 01/29/2011 14:18:08

banjerman - Posted - 01/29/2011:  15:36:12

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Congrats Ken on your awakening. Those words in the song always fall on the same note and the music mind will eventually catch on to it. It becomes a real strong association too. Next you will hear the same note progression in another tune and just play what you have already learned from the previous song. The trick is to catch on the first time and Johnny Bbbbbb is the guy to help you do just that. There are several more epifanys that will take you even further. Enjoy!
Wally

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 01/29/2011:  15:42:15

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quote:

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Originally posted by banjerman

Congrats Ken on your awakening. Those words in the song always fall on the same note and the music mind will eventually catch on to it. It becomes a real strong association too. Next you will hear the same note progression in another tune and just play what you have already learned from the previous song. The trick is to catch on the first time and Johnny Bbbbbb is the guy to help you do just that. There are several more epifanys that will take you even further. Enjoy!
Wally

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Thanks for the encouragement Wally. I imagine I am on the tip of an iceberg but at least I'm not in the water.
Yes I am very fortunate to be getting lessons from John.
Enjoyed hearing you play in the chat room today.
Ken

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Edited by - From Greylock to Bean Blossom on 01/29/2011 15:42:57

Brian T - Posted - 01/29/2011:  16:35:11

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Ken: I hope that my questions fit in here:
I've done a lot of the tab thing (no jams and no teachers anywhere within maybe 250 miles.)
So, at the time, it seemed like a good idea to buy some banjo play-along instruction.
I can't keep up with any of it, tab or no tab. Pretty scary for me to confront the speed.
Those CD's, DVD's and books keep the dust off the shelf.

1. How can I make use of what I bought?
2. When you listen, can you actually figure out which rolls are being played?
I can't, not even in the play-along instruction. I've replayed some of it 10X before I quit.

pcfive - Posted - 01/29/2011:  17:00:08

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I think the central message of this forum is that you can't learn simply by memorizing tabs. When I started, I would try playing songs from tabs and they didn't sound like anything. I didn't have any idea what it was supposed to sound like.

I gradually realized, mostly from reading this forum, that I had to change my whole approach to learning songs. I got Splitting the Licks by Janet Davis, and that helped me see what Scruggs style is made of.

Now I learn songs both by listening and from tabs, and at least I have some idea what it's supposed to sound like. I am starting to feel I am almost beginning to understand Scruggs style, because I am starting to see the general patterns.

So yes, thinking you can learn just from tabs is probably a common error. I'm very glad I started reading this forum, however many years ago it was, and got straightened out on that.

The teachers here sometimes differ in their specific advice, but they unanimously agree that you have to listen, and you have to understand the timing and phrasing of this style.

Dave Magram - Posted - 01/29/2011:  17:20:32

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Ken,
Thanks for mentioning me. I am glad to hear that my posts in some small way helped inspire you to stop relying on tab.
As I've said several times before, there is nothing wrong with tab if it used correctly, which IMO is to help you learn to play by ear. If anyone is still completely relying on tab for more than a few months, I believe that you are not using it correctly.

Clearly John B. gets the credit for your progress--he sounds like has has been an excellent instructor for you. I checked out a couple of his many free LOTW (Lick of the Week) videos, and John certainly explains things very well.

And what you describe of how John is teaching you to play word by word is perfect--that's exactly how I learn new songs.
In fact, I usually memorize the words to at least one verse and the chorus of every bluegrass song I learn, even though I am not singing them.
Words are a great memory aid to remember the melody.
And when I am playing my solo, I "sing" the words in my head.

The other thing I like about the concept of "playing the words" is that is what I believe Earl did.
All those little slides, chokes, and hammer-on that some people dismiss as "ornamentation" were, IMO, Earl's interpretation on the banjo of how Bill Monroe or Lester Flatt actually sang the song.
If you listen to Lester sing, he often doesn't hit the melody note square on, but kind of slides up into it.
Even more so with Monroe, who really liked to add the "blues notes" of b3, b7 and b5.
That's what Earl captured in his banjo-playing.

---------------------------------------------
Brian T, I feel your pain.
If tab doesn't work and learning by ear doesn't work, you need a good teacher.
If you are 250 miles from anything up there in the Great White North, you might consider signing up for some Internet lessons with John Boulding (Banjophobic).
As far as I know, the Internet connects from North Carolina to Canada just fine.

I've heard a number of people praise John for his teaching ability, and here's Ken with a very timely and relevant story.
I'd suggest sending Banjophobic a PM and seeing if John has any openings.

Good picking to both of you.
-Dave

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Edited by - Dave Magram on 01/29/2011 17:35:29

dirtygeorge - Posted - 01/29/2011:  18:04:44

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As someone New I'm lost. Would really like to chat with someone if they have the time an inclination to help soneone just starting really understand what your trying to convay here.

Thanks so much.
George

Sheldon - Posted - 01/29/2011:  18:09:40

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A word of advice.
George you'd better do it by private email. Otherwise the snipers will begin and succeed in driving another helpful person or persons off the site.

Sheldon

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 01/29/2011:  18:13:55

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quote:

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Originally posted by Brian T

Ken: I hope that my questions fit in here:
I've done a lot of the tab thing (no jams and no teachers anywhere within maybe 250 miles.)
So, at the time, it seemed like a good idea to buy some banjo play-along instruction.
I can't keep up with any of it, tab or no tab. Pretty scary for me to confront the speed.
Those CD's, DVD's and books keep the dust off the shelf.

1. How can I make use of what I bought?
2. When you listen, can you actually figure out which rolls are being played?
I can't, not even in the play-along instruction. I've replayed some of it 10X before I quit.

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Brian,
I can get an idea of the roll by where the melody notes and the Scruggisms( the real distinguishing features of the song) have to go. I don't think (and I am not the expert) that it is essential to use the same roll as say Earl plays. Some teachers teach students to first play a song using one roll and then later to play the entire song using a different roll. IMO the important thing is to get the melody note in the right place and to use the roll that feels best for you to get it there. It will not be as hard as it sounds. Just keep the segment of the song you are working on small and work it over and over till you get a smoothness and the melody notes in the right place.

If you have dvd and the play along is too fast try playing it back at a slower speed. Or maybe you need to go to Wernicks slowest jam tape and work you way up to have now so it is not wasted. The amazing slowdowner can be slowed to 1/5! this is great for listening or for playing along with.

Brian, I tell you the truth sometimes I listen to one part 50 times and then do it again the next day. At first I can almost hear it without it being on. Sometimes I get to the point I can really hear it and then as John taught me let your mind take over and it will almost play itself. Wierd but it works.

The lessons were the real turn around for me and seeing and listening to the process word by word of John creating the solo. JOhn also stresses don't get caught up in thinking you have to play an 8 note per measure roll. there can be stops and roll direction changes at any time depending on the time needed to get to the melody note.

Brian remember I am not the expert here but I am just starting to get a glimpse.
Hope this helps.
Ken

dirtygeorge - Posted - 01/29/2011:  18:16:17

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well as it would be kinda hard to do it on here that's kinda what I ment about private.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 01/29/2011:  18:35:54

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sheldon

A word of advice.
George you'd better do it by private email. Otherwise the snipers will begin and succeed in driving another helpful person or persons off the site.

Sheldon

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Sheldon,
Lets just say forget those guys. if John B, Kidd, Jody and Dave couldn't change them no one will. I'm not even going to respond except to say I disagree.
Have they ever hurt this site that a hack like me is giving advice.
Ken

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 01/29/2011:  18:36:46

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quote:

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Originally posted by dirtygeorge

well as it would be kinda hard to do it on here that's kinda what I ment about private.

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George, I sent you a message on your email.
Ken

Dave Magram - Posted - 01/29/2011:  18:47:57

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quote:

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Originally posted by dirtygeorge

As someone New I'm lost. Would really like to chat with someone if they have the time an inclination to help soneone just starting really understand what your trying to convay here.
Thanks so much.
George

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Hi Dirtygeorge,

Feel free to post your questions on this forum, and I'll try to answer them as best I can.

Ken had e-mailed me a few times about what a breakthrough this was for him, and I encouraged him to post it on the BHO for others to learn from his story.

What exactly is puzzling you?

- Dave

Dave Magram - Posted - 01/30/2011:  09:55:44

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Dirtygeorge,

Let me take a guess at what might be puzzling you.

Ken (From Greylock) used an interesting phrase, “playing the words”.
What that means to me is that Earl Scruggs did his best to capture not just the basic melody of a song, but the stylistic nuances and phrasing that Lester Flatt or Bill Monroe added to the basic melody.

One way to observe this for yourself is to play a recording of a Flatt & Scruggs song and memorize the words to one or two verses. (Ken’s example of The Old Hometown would be great to use if you have it. If you don’t have it, listen to another medium-tempo F&S song like Somehow Tonight or Head Over Heels.)

Now play the recording again and sing along with Lester when he sings the verse, trying to capture his stylistic nuances, such as sliding up to a note instead of hitting it square on.

Once you have Lester’s phrasing and nuances down pretty good, now listen to Earl play the banjo solo, and sing along (out loud) with it.
Most likely you will notice that Earl is “playing the sung words” pretty close to how Lester sang them, nuances and all.

This is why even Don Reno once said something like: “Earl Scruggs can insinuate the melody better than anybody else in the world.”

And this is why, the more you listen to Earl’s solos and play along with them a zillion times, you will begin to lock his sound into your brain.
Of course being able to sound like him on the banjo is a whole other story.

Does this help?

-Dave

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Edited by - Dave Magram on 01/30/2011 09:57:24

picKen - Posted - 01/30/2011:  14:40:10

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BHO has changed my focus of learning how to play as well. I am using a Janet Davis book "You Can Teach Yourself Blugrass Banjo." I believe she is right but it takes a lot more than one book of tab. My goal in the beginning was to learn as many songs as possible but that goal changed after I started banjophobics vamping exercises and realized that although I can play John Hardy up and down the neck I could not make a full F or D chord shape and that I had no idea what chords I was playing in John Hardy. So I memorized the chromatic scale and went to the back of the book where the chord chart is and last night I started all over with the first song I learned "Bile Them Cabbage Down" and learned the chord progression by strumming and singing the words as suggested here on BHO. I then played the tune over and over using all the different roll patterns, full and partial chords, added slides and hammer-ons, vamping, etc. Some things sounded good, somethings did not, but the chords were always the same and I gained a better understanding of how to play music not just play tab. The light bulb is dim but it's starting to come on thanks to BHO.

Ken

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Edited by - picKen on 01/30/2011 14:41:08

NickC - Posted - 01/31/2011:  03:26:31

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quote:

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Originally posted by picKen

BHO has changed my focus of learning how to play as well. I am using a Janet Davis book "You Can Teach Yourself Blugrass Banjo." I believe she is right but it takes a lot more than one book of tab. My goal in the beginning was to learn as many songs as possible but that goal changed after I started banjophobics vamping exercises and realized that although I can play John Hardy up and down the neck I could not make a full F or D chord shape and that I had no idea what chords I was playing in John Hardy. So I memorized the chromatic scale and went to the back of the book where the chord chart is and last night I started all over with the first song I learned "Bile Them Cabbage Down" and learned the chord progression by strumming and singing the words as suggested here on BHO. I then played the tune over and over using all the different roll patterns, full and partial chords, added slides and hammer-ons, vamping, etc. Some things sounded good, somethings did not, but the chords were always the same and I gained a better understanding of how to play music not just play tab. The light bulb is dim but it's starting to come on thanks to BHO.

Ken

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I'm in a similar position Ken. I've been playing a year now and recently started taking lessons with a great Teacher. It's been a bit of a revelation as he has begun the slow process of teaching me the main root and root inversions of chords all over the fretboard. I think knowing these is really going to help as i progress!

Nick

sseiple - Posted - 02/10/2011:  18:11:44

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Dave, everything in this thread sounds inspiring. However, reading about it is one thing, and seeing someone demonstrate is another. Do you or John Boulding or anyone else ever present any Group Workshops to demonstrate this? If so, I'd sure be interested because I am way too tab dependent. Thanks!

Steve

quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Magram

quote:

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Originally posted by dirtygeorge

As someone New I'm lost. Would really like to chat with someone if they have the time an inclination to help soneone just starting really understand what your trying to convay here.
Thanks so much.
George

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Hi Dirtygeorge,

Feel free to post your questions on this forum, and I'll try to answer them as best I can.

Ken had e-mailed me a few times about what a breakthrough this was for him, and I encouraged him to post it on the BHO for others to learn from his story.

What exactly is puzzling you?

- Dave

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From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 02/10/2011:  18:58:30

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I have encouraged John to do a workshop but he says the chat room is all tied up for quite a while. he does have a lesson of this on his LOTW (Lesson of the Week) series.
jsutergraphix.com/LOTW/#formating
"Building solos Scruggs styles."
For me tab was a dead end street. I turned me into a banjo parrot and a very poor one at that. (being poor at it may have had to do with my abilities). But I wanted to be able to "just play the banjo" as an extension of me like whistling. through this process I can see a possibility of it happening - dependent if I want to put the time in.
Good luck,
Ken
PS I would encourage you to try a short lesson with John and get a feel for it. It is a lot different than working from a book or a DVD.

KidfromDeliverance - Posted - 02/11/2011:  16:01:20

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As a kind of side note, "Twenty Years of Terrible" would be a GREAT bluegrass song title.

sseiple - Posted - 02/12/2011:  15:04:21

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Ken,

In the LOTW index, to which lesson # were you referring? Thanks!

Steve

quote:

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Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

I have encouraged John to do a workshop but he says the chat room is all tied up for quite a while. he does have a lesson of this on his LOTW (Lesson of the Week) series.
jsutergraphix.com/LOTW/#formating
"Building solos Scruggs styles."
For me tab was a dead end street. I turned me into a banjo parrot and a very poor one at that. (being poor at it may have had to do with my abilities). But I wanted to be able to "just play the banjo" as an extension of me like whistling. through this process I can see a possibility of it happening - dependent if I want to put the time in.
Good luck,
Ken
PS I would encourage you to try a short lesson with John and get a feel for it. It is a lot different than working from a book or a DVD.

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Old Man - Posted - 02/12/2011:  15:44:50

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I use tab alot but I have to hear before I can pick it I mean in my own head. I listen to the song and try make it come alive wih my banjo.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 02/12/2011:  16:16:02

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Steve,
I am pretty sure it would be lesson 69. after getting the main idea use lessons 70 and 71.
ken

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 02/12/2011:  17:09:40

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quote:

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Originally posted by KidfromDeliverance

As a kind of side note, "Twenty Years of Terrible" would be a GREAT bluegrass song title.

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How about 20 years of Terrible and the heartach you caused!
Ken

minstrelmike - Posted - 02/12/2011:  17:36:48

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Twenty Years of Terrible Is Traditional

KidfromDeliverance - Posted - 02/12/2011:  18:23:59

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quote:

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How about 20 years of Terrible and the heartach you caused!
Ken

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That'll work!

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 02/13/2011:  08:25:31

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quote:

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Originally posted by KidfromDeliverance

quote:

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How about 20 years of Terrible and the heartach you caused!
Ken

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That'll work!

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Patrick,
We need to decide how we will share the co-writing royalties on this. I hope we can do it amicablly.
Ken

minstrelmike - Posted - 02/13/2011:  09:07:24

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quote:

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Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

Patrick,
We need to decide how we will share the co-writing royalties on this. I hope we can do it amicablly.
Ken

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I foresee much heartache in your future together ;-)

SaggyBottom - Posted - 02/14/2011:  14:23:30

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quote:

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Originally posted by KidfromDeliverance

As a kind of side note, "Twenty Years of Terrible" would be a GREAT bluegrass song title.

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Hey Are you really the kid from deliverance?

5stringpicker2 - Posted - 02/14/2011:  14:57:08

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I found early in my learning to play the banjo that "Listening" is the best way to help the learning process.

Back in the day we had records and cassette tapes. the records we could slow to 16 the tapes not so. Technology today makes it easier to learn than 40+ years ago. Lots of stuff, More books, Youtube and such

The way I learn a song is to listen over & over & over till I have every note in my head and know the tune note for note.

I play the song I want to learn on my PCs 6 of them all thru out the house so no matter where I'm at I can listen. When I have the song in my head I play it on some slow down software and then only work out a couple measures at a time, Sorta like building a brick house, One layer at time til you have a house

And building the song measure by measure til you have a completed song.

(I )===='---<::)

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 02/14/2011:  16:38:38

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quote:

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Originally posted by 5stringpicker2

I found early in my learning to play the banjo that "Listening" is the best way to help the learning process.

Back in the day we had records and cassette tapes. the records we could slow to 16 the tapes not so. Technology today makes it easier to learn than 40+ years ago. Lots of stuff, More books, Youtube and such

The way I learn a song is to listen over & over & over till I have every note in my head and know the tune note for note.

I play the song I want to learn on my PCs 6 of them all thru out the house so no matter where I'm at I can listen. When I have the song in my head I play it on some slow down software and then only work out a couple measures at a time, Sorta like building a brick house, One layer at time til you have a house

And building the song measure by measure til you have a completed song.

(I )===='---<::)

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Terry,
Thanks for sharing your methodology. Pat Cloud said to listen to a song 100 times. Dave Magram talks about the work of listening. Thanks for the reinforcement of the message which makes for good motivation.
Ken

KidfromDeliverance - Posted - 02/14/2011:  17:19:44

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quote:

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Patrick,
We need to decide how we will share the co-writing royalties on this. I hope we can do it amicablly.
Ken

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Well, we've only got a title and chorus-type line so far . . . I suppose we could both play around with it and see if we can push it a little further. But if this is all I contribute to a finished work, it's yours, man!

paulbluegrass - Posted - 02/14/2011:  17:29:17

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Do you have any info regarding the Skype lessons? What is John's contact info?

Thanks, Paul

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 02/15/2011:  09:09:47

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quote:

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Originally posted by paulbluegrass

Do you have any info regarding the Skype lessons? What is John's contact info?

Thanks, Paul

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The Skype lessons are by John Boulding. He is banjophobic on the hangout. You can send him a private message from his homepage.
banjohangout.org/my/Banjophobic.
His prices are very reasonable.
Ken