earlsgranada - Posted - 11/13/2011:  12:17:57

Hello folks,

I was at an old time jam the other night, and a friend I work with, who plays guitar, asked me if I knew about Charlie, and his style, and some of his tunes. I didn't know much about him to begin with. I watched "Give Me The Banjo" the other night, and I sure did learn a lot about Charlie, Posey Rorrer, and his great nephew, Kinney Rorrer.

I have found a couple of videos on YT about Kinney, and about playing his uncle's great style. I do understand from watching Kinney play, that Charlie used what he called the "low-bass" C tuning, which I know is gCGBD.

I was curious as to find out more about Charlie Poole, especially, if there are any PDF copies of his tabs, like his big hit, "Don't let Your Deal Go Down", "Take A Drink On Me", "Baltimore Fire", and "If I Lose, Let Me Lose".

I have checked "The Old-Time Herald", and I found a free tab to "If The River Was Whiskey", plus a free sound file of it as well.

Now if I'm right (probably not) but "Don't Let Your Deal", is in either D or F, I'm not sure.

I'll post the video of Kinney here, which he did in an interview with David Holt.

 Kinney Rorrer and David Holt

In the video, Kinney plays both "If I Lose" and "Don't Let Your Deal Go Down".

Please let me know if there's more to learn about Charlie and his style, and the particular sound he had. (Although, I definitely don't want to get drunk and have my fingers broke by a baseball like he did! Haha.)

Above are my number one favorites, but "Take A Drink" is the one I'm most wanting to see if there's a tab of.

~Craig 

Edited by - earlsgranada on 11/13/2011 13:38:27

janolov - Posted - 11/13/2011:  12:48:27

Here is how I play Don't Let Your Deal Go Down. It is not exactley, but I think it is rather close to Poole's playing and it at least contains a lot of typical Poole.

Don't let Your Deal Go Down

deuceswilde - Posted - 11/13/2011:  12:57:44

"Low Bass" is a modern term- it was called "standard" and went without saying.

Learn "classic banjo" accompaniment, that is what he used.  I think Clarke Buehling has transcribed "Don't Let Your Deal" in his tab book.

Something to remember about learning from recordings, The key that it sounds is not always what it was played in- they adjusted (speed up, slowed down) to fit.  Also, the banjo until "modern era" was a transposing instrument and mostly played in the three natural keys.  It it a transposing instrument, meaning that the pitch of the strings may vary but the intervals remained the same .

earlsgranada - Posted - 11/13/2011:  13:13:14

Thank you very much, Jan!

~Craig

Malcolm - Posted - 11/13/2011:  13:13:49

If you really want to learn Charlie's style, another great Poole style player is Pete Peterson who is sometimes on this forum.  He plays with both the Orpheus Supertones and Waking up Tille and is a frequent at Clifftop, Mount Airy, and other old timey festivals.  Pete has written an article about Poole style for the Old Time Herald in the past.  Might be worth giving him a shout.

earlsgranada - Posted - 11/13/2011:  13:32:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by Malcolm

If you really want to learn Charlie's style, another great Poole style player is Pete Peterson who is sometimes on this forum.  He plays with both the Orpheus Supertones and Waking up Tille and is a frequent at Clifftop, Mount Airy, and other old timey festivals.  Pete has written an article about Poole style for the Old Time Herald in the past.  Might be worth giving him a shout.

---

Yep, he published tabs in the OTH, and I sure did learn a lot. Do you know his username?

earlsgranada - Posted - 11/13/2011:  13:39:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by deuceswilde

"Low Bass" is a modern term- it was called "standard" and went without saying.

Learn "classic banjo" accompaniment, that is what he used.  I think Clarke Buehling has transcribed "Don't Let Your Deal" in his tab book.

Something to remember about learning from recordings, The key that it sounds is not always what it was played in- they adjusted (speed up, slowed down) to fit.  Also, the banjo until "modern era" was a transposing instrument and mostly played in the three natural keys.  It it a transposing instrument, meaning that the pitch of the strings may vary but the intervals remained the same .

---

Right, but according to Kinney, Charlie called it "low-bass".

Frosty Morn - Posted - 11/13/2011:  15:02:09

If you do ever run across Pete Peterson, I believe he'll tell you all you need to know about the style 

in a few minutes.  The chord shapes, the patterns, etc... then you're on your way!  Practice, practice

and be creative.  Charlie moved those shapes up and down the fingerboard, kind of like a guitar

player might do with barre chords.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 11/13/2011:  15:17:13

I think Art Rosenbaum has some info on Poole's style in his "Art of the Mountain Banjo" book.

I never have tried to play in that particular 3 finger style but I've managed to get my clawing to sound pretty good with Poole tunes by doing a lot (and I mean a LOT) of chord to chord runs. Most of Poole's music stays in the I, IV, V chords and just doing the Tonic to tonic runs gets a lot of his sound. From there  I tended to do 2 or 1 string strokes on the 2 and 4 beat while doing an I or V note in the bass. I would also do a fair number of hits on the 5th string on the off beats. In fact doing Poole was once place where I did a lot of Bum ___ Did-dy. My typical pattern for a Charlie Poole measure would be |Bum __ Did-dy Bum-pa Did-dy| interrupting the pattern for the chord runs.

I should tab out a couple Poole tunes for clawhammer.

earlsgranada - Posted - 11/13/2011:  15:47:15

Tony Trischka put a tab of Charlie's in his "Banjo Songbook" from Oak Publications. It's his version of the old fiddle tune, "Flop-Eared Mule". That book also includes tabs from early three-finger players, including Dewitt "Snuffy" Jenkins, Frank Jenkins (no relation to Snuffy, Frank was known for his tune, "Baptist Shout"), Coble "Dock" Walsh, and Charlie Poole, of course. 

~Craig

Edited by - earlsgranada on 11/13/2011 15:51:52

gailg64 - Posted - 11/13/2011:  17:04:15

This is basically the style I l most enjoy playing, but getting the full sound requires a couple of friends on the same wavelength--guitar and fiddle (and possibly piano!). Another problem is that the fiddle parts are not all that easy, not to mention the Roy Harvey finger picked guitar style, which is a guitar version of the banjo style.  The Poole sound is not just about the banjo, but about the rhythmic interplay with other instruments. 

The first thing to do is listen, listen, listen. Hands down, Kinney Rorrer is the greatest living practitioner & he's played that style & only that style all his life (he's the great nephew of the North Carolina Ramblers' main fiddler, Posey Rorer). Kinney plays the Poole style with great joy, ease, and verve. If you don't live in NC and run into Kinney at fiddlers conventions, you can watch & hear him in action on YouTube. There's an interview with him by David Holt that has some nice closeups of the right & left hands. Also search for his band (playing since the late 60s), the New North Carolina Ramblers. He played with some fiddlers of Posey Rorer's generation at first, but today's band includes: Kinney on banjo with Kirk Sutphin (fiddle or banjo),  Darren Moore (guitar, autoharp & singing), & Jeremy Stephens (fiddle, banjo, guitar & singing) & now Randy Johnson (guitar & singing.) You can learn an awful lot of tips by watching. Kinney's chord style can usually be deciphered once you know what the shapes are and that the runs are generally happening on the 4th or 3rd string. Watch, listen & then fool around with it & "connect the dots!" Then try playing along.

I also recommend getting the CDs of Kinney's band,  the New North Carolina Ramblers. The sound of the banjo comes through loud & clear and the keys are given in the notes. I play along with these recordings often & at first could not keep up (they're FAST!), then gradually began to hang in there with them--next step is to anticipate beats!

And then listen, listen, listen some more! Here are some other people to listen to: 

Sam McNeil: If you want to hear a beautifully fully developed version of the Charlie Poole style played "naked," (without fiddle & guitar) search for Sam McNeil on the Digital Library of Appalachia. McNeil plays a few tunes solo--just wonderful stuff.

Wade Ward: Also check out the Charlie HIggins and Norman Edmonds CDs from the Field Recorders' Collective. Wade Ward most often played in this "Poole" style when he was in a stringband. There are also some clear cuts of Wade playing Charlie Poole style (which they called "flat chord" style in some parts of NC) on the Union Grove 1969 FRC CD. Ward is not identified on the label, but that's him on about 12 of the last cuts on the disc. The fiddling is pretty funky, perhaps a child, but the banjo is up high in the mix & it's wonderful. You can tell it's Ward by his laugh, comments, & the funny tags he throws in at the end of each tune.

Glenn Davis: Also on that same disc (Union Grove) is the spectacular banjo player Glenn Davis, who plays as Charlie would surely have had he lived a few more decades. Davis still had the basic overall structure Poole used (syncopated bass runs and small arpeggios) but he also threw in much of the melody & he would "roll" more over the measures. He was almost TOO good to stand, but you can really get a sampler of everything that's possible with the style and decide what to keep and what's over the top. 

G

quote:

---

Originally posted by earlsgranada

Hello folks,

I was at an old time jam the other night, and a friend I work with, who plays guitar, asked me if I knew about Charlie, and his style, and some of his tunes. I didn't know much about him to begin with. I watched "Give Me The Banjo" the other night, and I sure did learn a lot about Charlie, Posey Rorrer, and his great nephew, Kinney Rorrer.

I have found a couple of videos on YT about Kinney, and about playing his uncle's great style. I do understand from watching Kinney play, that Charlie used what he called the "low-bass" C tuning, which I know is gCGBD.

I was curious as to find out more about Charlie Poole, especially, if there are any PDF copies of his tabs, like his big hit, "Don't let Your Deal Go Down", "Take A Drink On Me", "Baltimore Fire", and "If I Lose, Let Me Lose".

I have checked "The Old-Time Herald", and I found a free tab to "If The River Was Whiskey", plus a free sound file of it as well.

Now if I'm right (probably not) but "Don't Let Your Deal", is in either D or F, I'm not sure.

I'll post the video of Kinney here, which he did in an interview with David Holt.

 Kinney Rorrer and David Holt

In the video, Kinney plays both "If I Lose" and "Don't Let Your Deal Go Down".

Please let me know if there's more to learn about Charlie and his style, and the particular sound he had. (Although, I definitely don't want to get drunk and have my fingers broke by a baseball like he did! Haha.)

Above are my number one favorites, but "Take A Drink" is the one I'm most wanting to see if there's a tab of.

~Craig 

---

Edited by - gailg64 on 11/13/2011 17:06:29

Jim Yates - Posted - 11/13/2011:  20:21:12

There is a three disc set that comes in a simulated cigar box that every Charlie Poole fan should own.  It is called You Ain't Talkin' To Me and there is a wonderful picture of Charlie drawn by R.Crumb on the lid of the box and a 35 page booklet inside the box.  All of the tunes mentioned in the original post, "Don't let Your Deal Go Down", "Take A Drink On Me", "Baltimore Fire", and "If I Lose, Let Me Lose" are include plus many more.    

amazon.com/You-Aint-Talkin-Me-...0009A1B8G

Edited by - Jim Yates on 11/13/2011 20:23:30

derwood400 - Posted - 11/14/2011:  16:50:40

+1 to everything that people have posted here. Charlie Poole is my biggest banjo hero. Bar none. I really can't contribute anything to this thread that hasn't been said already. My biggest challenge has been getting a handle on that classic C tuning. I don't know why, but I have a really hard time with it. Other than that, as awesome as Charlie's playing sounds, it's not overly complicated from what I've seen. It appears to make really limited use of the 5th string. Mind you, the only tab I've ever really seen was the one that Pete Peterson wrote up for the Old Time Herald. Definitely listen to all those sources that Gail quoted. And get yourself that Charlie Poole box set. The little booklet alone is worth the price.

It would be absolutely incredible if Pete or Kinney would write a tab book with a bunch of transcriptions of Poole songs. I would buy that in a heartbeat.

Edited by - derwood400 on 11/14/2011 16:53:09

vrteach - Posted - 11/15/2011:  14:41:33

Kinney Rorrer wrote a biography of Charlie Poole titled: Rambling Blues, The Life & Songs of Charlie Poole. I've got a copy and it made a good read. But I forget how much detail is given for the songs--certainly no tablature.

There is also a "print on demand" book titled Charlie Poole (ISBN 10: 6130714130) by "Miller, Frederic P.; Vandome Agnes F.; and McBrewster, John" but I haven't found a description of it yet.

Edit: found a description. It's just a print-on-demand version of the Wikipedia pages. Bookstores will charge you $50 for it! Go read it for free.

Edited by - vrteach on 11/15/2011 14:45:27

Pete Peterson - Posted - 11/16/2011:  19:45:25

Wow, at least ONE sale if I could ever write a book of tabbed-out Charlie Poole tunes! Thanks for the vote of confidence.

I stand by what I said in the OTH article: you can learn enough to get started with Poole-style banjo in less than 15 minutes (God, I sound like a Geico commercial).
1) Get the banjo into classical C tuning: gCGBD. Learn the I, IV, and V chords in three different places.
2) Work on thumb-pluck: T/ IM / T/ IM (IM is index and middle, plucked up at the same time)
3) Alternate that with the up-and-down roll: TIMI (on strings 4212)
4) "Connect" the chords with runs using your thumb alone at first-- as you get better alternate thumb and index finger to "fill" during the runs.

if you just do 1 and 2 you already can have fun (if, for instance, you are the 3rd instrument with fiddle and clawhammer banjo) and it will get even better as you start to add 3 and 4.

Derwood400, you're right it is NOT overly complicated. Earlsgranada-- let us know if this helps!

gailg64 - Posted - 11/17/2011:  08:09:18

"Like!"

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pete Peterson

Wow, at least ONE sale if I could ever write a book of tabbed-out Charlie Poole tunes! Thanks for the vote of confidence.



I stand by what I said in the OTH article: you can learn enough to get started with Poole-style banjo in less than 15 minutes (God, I sound like a Geico commercial).

1) Get the banjo into classical C tuning: gCGBD. Learn the I, IV, and V chords in three different places.

2) Work on thumb-pluck: T/ IM / T/ IM (IM is index and middle, plucked up at the same time)

3) Alternate that with the up-and-down roll: TIMI (on strings 4212)

4) "Connect" the chords with runs using your thumb alone at first-- as you get better alternate thumb and index finger to "fill" during the runs.



if you just do 1 and 2 you already can have fun (if, for instance, you are the 3rd instrument with fiddle and clawhammer banjo) and it will get even better as you start to add 3 and 4.



Derwood400, you're right it is NOT overly complicated. Earlsgranada-- let us know if this helps!

---

earlsgranada - Posted - 11/17/2011:  08:35:33

Dang Pete, it is working! I love playing Charlie's style now! I guess I never put any thought to it early on. Don't Let Your Deal Go Down is a very cool tune, and I am trying to learn "Take A Drink On Me". I'm a little confused though, as to if "Take A Drink" is in G or C. It sounds to me like it's in C, but I'm not entirely sure.

I'll keep working on it, and I'm glad I took your advice, Pete.

Thanks!

~Craig

(Earlsgranada)

Pete Peterson - Posted - 11/17/2011:  09:04:04

Hi Craig,

Take a Drink on Me is in D (C tuning, capo up two). The diagnostic is listen to the run from I up to IV (D to G) just like in "If the River was Whiskey" where he makes just about the same run just before he sings "tell me how long. . ."
D (run up to) G
What did you do with a gun in your hand, you give it to a rounder and he shot a good man,
A (run up to) D
Oh Lord honey take a drink on me

and and just keep doing D G A D all the way through the song!

earlsgranada - Posted - 11/19/2011:  12:09:58

I just ordered Charlie's boxed set of CD's, from Sony, "You Ain't Talkin' To Me". I can't wait to get it, and just in time for Christmas. Amazon carries these, but this set is temporarily out of stock.

It's supposed to arrive December 19th, which will be sort of the wait, but this is the ESSENTIAL Charlie Poole, and it comes with a booklet with liner notes, and comes in a collector's tin.

I will like it very much, and it is kind of sad that I don't own any Charlie Poole records, yet.  

~Craig

rbell - Posted - 03/18/2012:  13:19:54

As mentioned in Kinney Rorer's writings, Poole was influenced by the playing of Fred Van Eps who along with Vess Ossman was one of the premier players of classic (so-called) banjo. A number of cylinder recordings of both artists were produced by the Edison Company and were quite popular in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Compare Poole's Allegheny Highlanders recording of "The Sunset March" and the Van Eps recording "L'infanta March" and the connection becomes clear. Charlie probably picked up the tune by ear and did pretty well. Along these lines, I heard Pete Peterson perform his version of Emil Grimshaw's "Footlight Favourite" (an ABF staple) which he learned by ear from a recording and rendered superbly. Would that I had Pete's ear for picking up tunes or for that matter Charlie's.  

liverlipsyyz - Posted - 03/21/2012:  06:31:08

also, check out loudon wainwright III fantastic tribute to poole on his charlie poole project record.

amzn.com/B002JUP8GU

banjolaz - Posted - 06/12/2012:  18:00:17

I hate to resurrect an old topic, 

but I have found an excellent version of Dont let your deal go down, and would love to learn the bones of it, 

youtube.com/watch?v=qvY2hyHda1U

thanks

BL

Chris Berry - Posted - 06/12/2012:  19:16:52

He's in regular G tuning playing in the key of F. Chord progression starts with a walk down from F to D, then G, C and back to F. Mess around with that and you shouldn't have too much trouble.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 06/12/2012:  23:26:24

banjolaz,

The version on the youtube video is done in clawhammer. All you need to do is add bass runs to the chords to create a Poole doing clawhammer sound. This is what I do now, I can no longer up pick because of arthritis.

Helix - Posted - 06/14/2012:  16:20:42

As mentioned above, Loudon Wainwright's definitive 3 disc set. Changed the way I played some of those.