haildixon - Posted - 01/05/2012:  19:10:35

OK - I'd like some advice that's unbiased as possible about these two banjo models:

• 
  Vega Pro 19 Fret / 28pc flange plate bernunzio.com/products/1116875


• 
  Silver Bell 19 Fret #1http://bernunzio.com/products/1117102

So, not necessarily those exact ones, but those are good examples of what I'm looking at. I'd like to hear from someone that's owned both and can tell me how they thought they stacked up against each other, if one had the advantage of the other in whatever respect. Please, if there's any advantages of one over the other, I'd like to hear a good explanation of those advantages.

Personally, I like the B&D a lot, but everyone I listen to, all of my so-called 'banjo heroes' were Vega guys. In addition to the comparison, I'm just wondering if there was a particular reason or whether it was just happenstance. I know the history and connection between the companies, but not a ton about why the banjoists that I listen to (Marrero, Guesnon, Dick Griffith, Sayles) went with Vega.

Edited by - haildixon on 01/06/2012 16:08:13

jbalch - Posted - 01/05/2012:  19:22:53

I'm a novice tenor player and hardly qualified to comment.  But I've owned Tubaphone and Silver Bell banjos...my personal preference is for the B&D instruments.

Regarding the history of the two companies and specifically those models: David Day had a hand in both the Vega tubaphone and the B&D Silver Bell.  I suggest you research him if you have not already done so.  I think Day is one of the most important figures in the history banjo design and development.

Best wishes!

haildixon - Posted - 01/05/2012:  19:25:49

Thanks John - yeah, I'm aware of Day's role with Vega and Bacon, but I'm more interested in real world comparisons between the 2 banjos, and any info people may have about why Revivalist Jazz banjoists preferred the Vega.

I'm gonna GUESS that those New Orleans banjoists just went with what was traditionally used, which I think up til then had been Vega, and it's not like they were bad banjos - it's just interesting to me that none of the old New Orleans banjoists give Bacons a shot - or maybe they did and I have yet to learn about it. I'm here to get my learn on.

Thanks!

BTW, why did you prefer the B&D?

Edited by - haildixon on 01/05/2012 19:39:14

jbalch - Posted - 01/05/2012:  19:42:30

Again I hesitate to say too much.  Hopefully you will hear from some more experienced and qualified players than I.

But I love the raspy, punchy sound of a great Silver Bell.  I also think they got the tone chamber just-right with the fixed resonator (especially the "F" hole flange from the 1920s).  Those banjos project really well and have a big "wide" sound.  I personally like the Slver Bell tone rings with interior holes.  Besides that...I think they are simply beautiful....

Tubaphone banjos can have too much ringing sustain for my taste.  But I admit: that specific bias carries over from the tubaphone application I'm familiar with (ie: conversions to 5-string for clawhammer playing).

You question is a good one...why did so many great players choose Vega.

Edited by - jbalch on 01/05/2012 19:49:28

haildixon - Posted - 01/05/2012:  19:48:10

Thanks man, that's the kind of observations I'm hoping to get. That's a gorgeous banjo too.

NYCJazz - Posted - 01/05/2012:  20:49:42

I remember the first Silver Bell I ever saw and played.

It was 1976 and I was 17. A guy at the local music had a #1 tenor for $450.

I was floored by the sound and action.

I've never heard a Vega that tickled that special spot soundwise for me. All of them were fantastic playing, though.

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/06/2012:  03:19:34

John,

Do forget about your "guru´s" - I´ve seen / experienced most of them playing on banjos of various other brands - B&D, Epiphone & Gibson - LOL!  Marrero did f.ex. use an Epiphone Bandmaster with an Elton damper and a zymbal mounted inside the pot in his most prominent period - 1950-55.

Are you going for a certain sound - f.ex. from the 50s/60s, as your favorites do maybe indicate - the characteristic sharp, raspy, short-sustain sound (at least for the tenors)?

Plus - which type (plectrum/tenor) and which tuning are you going for?

Plus-plus - will you be using it mostly for lets-say 3-4 piece combos or 7-8 piece classic jazz bands?  Un-plugged or amplified?

Plus-plus-plus - are you often playing along with a piano?

Do come up with some hints / ideas about this - maybe I then can help.

Regarding the two examples for sale at Bernunzio - don´t take their prices as expressions of their "musicality" - the difference in prices goes first of all for their features, their strength and sturdyness, the put-in materials and craftsmanship plus especially their possible potentials regarding a pro-use.

Polle

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 01/06/2012 03:26:41

banjopaolo - Posted - 01/06/2012:  05:06:49

I own a vega professional tenor, I play it open back and I'm really in love with its sound! it Is the same sound of banjo that I hear in many of the early jazz recordings that I love...
Silverbell are very good banjo of course, but I would not trade my tubaphone for a better silverbell.... but it's only a matter of taste!
paolo

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/06/2012:  06:13:07

Paolo,

Do have an eye open for some postings to maybe pop up at this thread - maybe you´ll then become aware of some issues unknown to you - for now - LOL!

Polle

​PS!

​Which size pot does your Tuba-Phone have?

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 01/06/2012 06:16:40

haildixon - Posted - 01/06/2012:  07:26:14

@ NYCJazz - let's keep this discussion PG-13 rated ;)

@ Polle...

• 
  I'm looking at a 19 fret tenor in CGDA


• 
  My band ranges from 4 to 7 players, always acoustic/unamplified


• 
  We play with piano about half the time - sometimes someone will just show up and start playing, it's hard to know when that will happen. such is New Orleans.

I linked those models at Burnuzio just as examples of the models (Silver Bell #1 vs Vegaphone) that I was looking at, without regard to price or accoutrements.

Anyway - I THINK I know what you mean by 'forget about your gurus' - I'll take that to mean don't worry so much about what kind of banjo they play. However, it IS the music that I listen to and play, and while I don't necessarily base my own sound on theirs, it invariably influences me and regardless, I'm still very curious to know why they played the banjos that they chose. I know from one time to another they played on different models, but by and large it would be accurate to say that the keystone banjoists from revivalist jazz mainly played Vega banjos. Whether the reason was happenstance or availability, marketing, tradition or whatever, I'm really curious to know.

For example - when Danny Barker bought his main six string - he chose a Vega openback, not because it was the best or anything, but simply because that's what he knew St Cyr had used - then he proceeded to play NOTHING like St Cyr. lol

I don't wish to know to replicate any particular sound. The sound that we hear on recordings isn't really true to what was actually played anyway, so replicating, say, Marreros sound on Bunk's first recordings would be a little pointless. Most of my playing aggravates most traditionalists because I'm mainly playing a short scale six string Silver Bell Guitar Banjo (the one listed on Wachter's site) right now, which makes most older trad jazz banjo players want to burn me at the stake. We have thus far played without a drummer or with minimal percussion and I've found the six string really helps fill out the rhythm section. I exchange the 2 lowest bass strings with lighter gauge and then tune them to E and A, an octave higher than what they'd normally be. It's tone, to me, is brighter than most plectrums, very full, but doesn't have the cutting tone of a typical tenor. We're starting to play with a drummer a little more, though, so I'll be playing tenor on those gigs - just as soon as I buy one. So, tradition isn't going to influence my purchasing decision too much, but I'd still like to know why Vega banjos are so popular.

What prompted this question was a small, I wont say argument, but a discussion about banjos I had recently with a prominent player from that New Orleans jazz revival. He maintained that the only proper banjo to use was a Vegaphone tenor - which I completely disagree with - but made me wonder WHY he thought that. He wouldn't tell me why, really. I'm not a guy that puts much stock in absolutes when it comes to music, but I do like to understand things.

Thanks!

Edited by - haildixon on 01/06/2012 07:29:52

tdennis - Posted - 01/06/2012:  08:07:23

You're query about Vegas has mentioned  the " tradition" of many  jazz greats, & testimonials about the Tubaphone having the right sound.  (But, there is something else that may  figure in to the choice of so many players ,  that is simply a matter of practicality.    i.e.,  in 1927 a Vega professional sold for $110, The Silver Bell #1 went for $140  (doesn't seem like a big difference, but translated to today's money would be a $400 difference).    That would put the Vega in the category of being a great instrument for a great price.   ( It seems that they would weigh such things, just as modern players do).  I believe the Vega & the Silver Bell are exquisite instruments both sonically,  & in playability, but the Vega may have just been the traditional best deal.  

haildixon - Posted - 01/06/2012:  08:20:54

Well, shoot - yeah - expense is a good point. I know these dudes didn't make a ton of money doing this. Sometimes it's easy to overlook the obvious.

Once on a French radio show where Kid Thomas was being interviewed he was asked if he did anything besides play trumpet, and he said well of course, he also painted. So, the interviewer asked what style he liked to paint in - Expressionist, post-Expressionism? Impressionist? His answer?

Houses.

Tinfoot - Posted - 01/06/2012:  08:38:06

Once on a French radio show where Kid Thomas was being interviewed he was asked if he did anything besides play trumpet, and he said well of course, he also painted. So, the interviewer asked what style he liked to paint in - Expressionist, post-Expressionism? Impressionist? His answer?



Houses.



----



Buwahahahahah! Now that is a great anecdote!

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/06/2012:  15:01:40

John,

Thanks a lot for your very nice and fulfilling reply - I´ll think a little about it and come back to you over the weekend. I´ll have to take great care of my words - especially being an alien - others could easily feel offended otherwise. I´ve experienced this many times in the past.

I have rebuild, restored, reconditioned and/or set up hundreds of professional vintage 4-string banjos - many of those Vega´s and B&D´s - and the vast majority jazz tenors - if you ever will visit various jazz environments in Europe, I guess, that you´ll be meeting some of them. I do not set them up to former days standards - all of them are rebuilt and set up to my modern and personal standards/specifications - most players over here love this and many are now going "my way" regarding sound and performance. More about this later.

I´ve listened to some of your Shotgun recordings - I love these - I´m especially impressed by the co-work between you and the pianist and your common pulse - that´s why I want - if possible - to give you some "tools" for picking out the best suited tenor.

tdennis,

You´re mostly right, I think - fine and interesting input - however the difference translated to todays money will IMHO be the double in USA - in Europe it will be min. 3 times higher.

Regards all - an indeed interesting thread

Polle

John Field - Posted - 01/06/2012:  15:52:08

I recently played tenor banjo for an 8-performance one week run of the musical show "The Boyfriend" in a 500-seat theatre pit orchestra.   The orchestra was made up of 18 players....strings, brass,reeds, drums,piano and tenor banjo.  They were all pro-players (except me) and the musical standard was exceptional, (I just about kept up.....).  It was a great chance to test some tenor banjos in a demanding environment.  I tried a 19 fret Vega Pro (1928), a B&D Silver Bell 17 fret (1927) a Paramount A 19 fret (1930) and a Gibson TB3 19 fret 40-hole archtop (1928).   The Vega pot  was 10 15/16th dia., the SB, 11 in dia., the Paramount 11 1/8th in dia and the TB3 11 in. dia.  All the banjos had plastic heads.

IMHO, the outstanding instrument for this particular set of circumstances was the Vega.  The 17 fret SB seemed to cut through less well.  The TB3 was ok but too mellow and the Paramount was completely swallowed up by the orchestra.    The 17 fret SB test was perhaps a little unfair and a 19 fret SB may have come out better than the Vega.

This of course is only an opinion about one particular set of conditions, but the Vega undoubtedly was the inst. of choice.  A word though in defence of the Paramount....in a quieter setting it has as good an "authentic tenor tone" as anything out there.

It's a fascinating topic ...........

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/06/2012:  16:39:48

John F.,

Where have you been?  Welcome back!

Great observations - I´ll have them in mind when somehow summarizing. I do for now agree - only - as pointed out by yourself - you can´t compare a 17-fret SB with the 19-fretters for this kind of music.

Do keep on posting!

Regards

Polle

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 01/06/2012 16:41:56

haildixon - Posted - 01/06/2012:  17:28:49

@ John Field - That's a pretty awesome test drive opportunity. I don't have much experience in the tonal differences between a 19 fret and 17 - but I had assumed that the shorter scale would render the 17 fret a little harsher and penetrating than the 19. That's interesting.

@ Polle - Think about it - I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say. Brett Richardson plays piano at the Spotted Cat every day from 4 til 6 and wears a jacket that has, stitched on the back "I love my haters" - I wouldn't worry too much about offending folks. 

Edited by - haildixon on 01/06/2012 17:29:06

stanger - Posted - 01/06/2012:  21:48:01

I can't speak for either brand's tenors, but I have played both as plectrums, and I own a B&D #1 plec.

Their tonality is more similar than vastly different, which is natural. To my ear, the Vegas have more sustain and are a bit brighter, but a lot of the brightness is setup stuff. The Vega's tone is a little compressed as well.

The B&D has a power advantage in my estimation- they throw harder than a Vega, and have a slightly more open sound. Both are sweet sounding, but the B&D, with less sustain, has a punchier tone. (Remember we are talking about small degrees here.)

Some of the practical reasons why Vegas may have been used more:
- More dealerships. Back in the day, a professional's banjo took a hell of a lot of beating, and those guys were working in conditions that were often terrible on the banjos, such as playing over piers, in hot humid dance pavillions, freezing cold dance pavillions, etc. The life of a working banjo was often shorter then than it is now, so dealerships counted. They were always on the move.

- Famous players. Just like today, a lot of pros had their own idols, and the would buy what their fave played. Vega had been around for about 20 years before the first B&D's showed up, although Bacon had Vegas made for him to his specs for many years before he started his own production.

- Familiarity. For a pro, other elements than just tone come into play. A player will stick with an instrument brand that's familiar to him, often if there is a better instrument available. Any time a player switches brands, there is always a time period that passes before the new one becomes as familiar in feel as the old banjo, and the new tone, weight, balance, and details all become familiar. For a pro who is solidly booked, buying a similar banjo to his old one may make the new one an easier transition.

-Endorsements. Some top professionals made serious money in endorsements. They not only got a banjo for free, they also got a big discount on their model, and lots of them would buy 3-4 banjos and sell them off the stage after playing them a couple of times. They would often get more for them than the list price of a new one, due partly to their endorsement, and partly due to players who didn't want to wait to get one just like it.

Back then, the endorsement wars were as strong as they are now, but the amateur players, especially those in smaller towns, had no good way of comparison. If a pro offered his banjo, they would snap it up if they could.
Eddy Peabody was known for this. When he was playing in a large city, he would scour the pawnshops and score good banjos of all brands on the cheap, play them onstage, and sell 'em offstage. There are dozens of banjos still out there that can legitimately claim they were played by Eddy Peabody- I have played 2 myself.

Either brand is fully capable of making the music you want to make. If you can try both out, do so and make your own decision as to what's best for you.

To each his own- I disagree with banjopaulo a little bit; I like the sound of a B&D open-backed more than a Vega, but if everyone liked the same dog, it would be a very boring world.

p.s. I have no problems at all with 6-string banjos! While they were never as popular as the others, they have a long tradition of their own in jazz, blues, folk and ragtime music, and they can hold their own in any of them. I felt that they were ignored for way too long, and I'm real happy they're making a big come-back. In my way of thinking, any banjo type is as good as any other, especially if it brings in new players.
regards,
stanger

haildixon - Posted - 01/06/2012:  21:56:30

That's a lot of information I hadn't really considered and all makes sense. The familiarity aspect and famous players I was on to - but hadn't thought to consider endorsements or dealerships, and it's really interesting the selling of the banjos after gigs - that's pretty clever. Thanks a lot for the well thought out comments.

John Field - Posted - 01/07/2012:  01:05:28

Haildixon.....I don't have a lot of experience comparing 19 and 17 fret Silver Bells.  The 17 fret I owned was a good and unmolested original banjo, but I think the design suffered a bit in that the scale length hadn't been shortened for a 17 fret configuration.  This placed the bridge at a very non-optimal position far too close to the Oettinger tailpiece.   IMHO this limited the tone and volume that the instrument was capable of, and as indicated in my first post, the orchestral test was perhaps not fully applicable to the 19 fret SB.  The other point about the Vega in that setting was that I seemed to have to work less hard at getting the banjo sound through the orchestra.....an important consideration in a 2.5 hour show perhaps.

The orchestral comparison test that I would have liked to try was the Vega Pro Tubaphone vs. a Vega Whyte Laydie style R 19 fret tenor.  Never had the chance to try a W.L. tenor........anyone done this?

But all these considerations are just personal opinions and as tenor players, we all hear things differently and that's what makes threads like this so interesting.   All these banjos are splendidly-built relics from the jazz age, and I think should all be cherished for what they are.......I just like to hear the banjo in whatever style or configuration it appears.

Polle......nice to be back!

Edited by - John Field on 01/07/2012 01:16:05

beezaboy - Posted - 01/07/2012:  05:00:31

An observation.  When I attend "jazz era"-type 4-string banjo conventions the most prominent and coveted banjos seem to be Dale Small banjos.  When I played one the tone was full and powerful.  Next in line - the 4-stringers seem to prefer Ome.  There are also B&D Silver Bell banjos present.  I was surprised, however, at how few vintage banjos were evident.  Maybe a Vega Vox here and a Paramount there but "new" banjos seemed to predominate.  I saw more Vega and Silver Bell banjos in glass cases in the Oklahoma City Banjo Museum than in the hands of players at the convention venue.  I'm not sure what conclusions can be drawn from this observation.  One possibility - Newer is Better. 

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/07/2012:  06:08:21

John H.  (too many John´s are posting here, it seems - Ha-Ha!)

Good news for the present banjo builders/manufacturers - but do instead go to a lot of concerts and festivals worldwide - I guess, that you´ll then get to some different observations.

It´s mostly about collectors versus players, I guess.

Polle

banjopaolo - Posted - 01/07/2012:  15:33:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe

​PS!

​Which size pot does your Tuba-Phone have?

---

standard 10 15/16

haildixon - Posted - 01/07/2012:  22:12:41

Another John!

If it helps, folks can just call me Dixon, I get that a lot since John is a pretty generic name.

Anyway, John H - here's what I've observed, and it's just a casual observation... Many of the tenor players I've run into have been older men, many of whom are retired from professions that weren't that of a musician and many of them have had more disposable income to help fund their banjo passion. Many of these folks are great musicians, I don't believe that having a profession other than musician means that ones musicianmanship cant be every bit as good as someone that does it for a living. But, anyway, my point being that a lot of these guys are playing very very expensive banjos.

A while back a band of friends came into town for French Quarter Fest. Their tenor player was an older dude, retired with an beautiful OME custom tenor. I don't like to knock other people's playing, but suffice to say his was not really quite up to par. Later I was in the rear courtyard of Fritzel's and one of New Orleans more famous banjoists was in the very back smoking a big cigar and he kind of squints at me and says "that banjo player..." and I say "yeah?..." and he just says "he's got a really, really nice banjo."

Most working musicians I know make a living, but their instruments are all real players and most are vintage because it's way way way more affordable to find something like a 1926 Chu-Berry Conn, than to buy a new Selmer Reference 36. Just look at the New Vegaphone being sold by Deering - It's listed for SEVEN THOUSAND DOLLARS. Who's going to buy that? I have yet to see a vintage Vegaphone, even the ones in top condition, for more than $3K. Most I'm seeing in fair condition for about $1500-2K. There are the successful musicians that have their choice of whatever new incredible banjo they want, but for the musician on a budget, it's really hard to beat a professional vintage instrument in good condition.

Edited by - haildixon on 01/07/2012 22:15:14

Emiel - Posted - 01/08/2012:  00:46:04

Banjo.com sells that Deering-Vega banjo for $5.380.00; that's still a lot...

banjo.com/Vega_Professional_Te...1489x.htm

beezaboy - Posted - 01/08/2012:  03:00:37

Dixon:

Valid Point.

John H.

banjopaolo - Posted - 01/08/2012:  09:31:51

I guess nobody has been buying that geering banjo! There are so many and so good sounding vintage tubaphones.....

RUBY2 - Posted - 01/08/2012:  10:18:57

I completely agree with John D about how times have changed with regard to instrument purchase and playing ability.

(some)People have so much more disposable income these days compared with the 30's+

I can speak from personal experience of that fact, I have only been playing for X2 years now and have two lovely banjos, a Vega Pro and a Epi Recording A both with Dan G tailpieces.

I should imagine that I don't play any better with either of them than I did on my Vega Pro, but I do enjoy playing them and even to my relatively untrained ear the tone from both is infinitely better.

Maybe one day, I can bring out the best from them :-/ you never know. I'll keep practicing and try :-)

CGDA - Posted - 01/08/2012:  11:15:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjopaolo

I guess nobody has been buying that geering banjo! There are so many and so good sounding vintage tubaphones...

​I just wonder why a modern copy sells for$5.380,00 

( Factory price $7,159.00) whereas a good vintage sells for $1300/1500. Is that because the modern one gets an iron stick inside the neck...?

​Marco

Edited by - CGDA on 01/08/2012 11:17:27

haildixon - Posted - 01/08/2012:  11:40:53

that's one seriously expensive stick of iron.

I got some scrap rebar outside, I wonder what I can get for that on eBay.

djangonut - Posted - 01/09/2012:  07:27:42

Another John!

I have played in traditional jazz and Dixieland bands since the early 1960s.  (I played in the Cavern Club in Liverpool before the Beatles and their ilk took it over!)  I have played guitar in mainstream, swing and blues outfits,  and also played in pit orchestra for musicals like Anything Goes,  Crazy for You,  and Oklahoma. Interestingly,  these musicals mostly are scored for guitar,  doubling banjo.  Not many guitarists who read, double on banjo,  so there is work out there for us banjo players!  I would just love to be invited to play in the musical Chicago.

Apart from Polle, I haven't heard anyone mention setups and the effect the players have on these wonderful Silver Bells and Vegaphones. I have never owned a Silver Bell,  but had a Vega Little Wonder 19 fret tenor in 1959,  swapped it for a Vegaphone Professional fifteen years later,  bought an Ome Juggernaut tenor in 1987 fourteen years after that,  which I swapped for an Ome Mogul tenor in 2001.

After I had bought my first Ome,  and played it in,  I asked Brian, the double bass player in our band, a professional musician with a good ear,  how it compared to the Vegaphone.  His reply was interesting.  He said that it sounded like me (John), playing the banjo!  Perhaps we each bring our own styles, foibles,  set-ups,  weight of plectrum, height of bridge,  make of string,  so each player gets a unique banjo sound which "fits" for him.  I am sure that I can make most tenor banjos sound like "me playing the banjo"! 

I played and recorded with Brian Carrick's Algiers Stompers about ten years ago. (This is one of Britain's best-loved New Orleans style outfits.)  I was playing the Ome Juggernaut.  Brian said that I sounded like Lawrence Marrero.  My hero though is Lee Blair on the '20s Morton sides and with Wilbur de Paris in the '50s. I strive for his sound and  I would dearly love to play like him!  Does anyone know what make of instrument he played?  Whatever.  I bet that if he were playing today,  like the modern day American greats he would be playing an Ome.  (Think Wachter, Alden,  and Sayer.)

But I think that I remember reading somewhere that Buddy Wachter said that we worry too much about what sort of sounds our banjos make,  instead of concentrating on the quality of music that we play on them.

John Irwin

Rob MacKillop - Posted - 01/09/2012:  07:30:39

Welcome, John. I can't help you - just wanted to say hello...

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/09/2012:  08:56:54

John I.,

Haven´t we been writing off-line in the past?  My memory is sometimes a little poor - plus I am writing with many many hundreds of banjo guys (plus other jazz musicians) every year. LOL!  Sorry!

Yes, you´re so right - my recipe for a certain tenor jazz sound is - 10% banjo, 10% set-up and 80% player.

Brian Carrick is by the way a frequent guest player in DK and/or with Danish bands - I may have played with him in the past - but again my poor memory fails me. LOL!

Guys,

Regarding a B&D Silver Bell versus VEGA Vegaphone/Professional comparison - I´ll get back somewhat later - I´ll want my posting regarding this to be as correct and impartial as possible.

Polle

RUBY2 - Posted - 01/09/2012:  09:32:27

Welcome John to BHO!
another Brit! Ah ha our numbers are amassing :-))
I enjoyed reading your response too.
Ta
Richard

haildixon - Posted - 01/09/2012:  12:43:06

@ John I - thanks for your thoughts. FWIW, I think the recipe for tenor sound is pretty much the recipe for any instrument. I have friends that come by all the time and I have a room full of instruments. I know how I sound on them, but it's always kind of awesome when someone else picks one up and then, in an instant, it is a different instrument.

I don't know Carrick personally, but my wife does and we have a bunch of mutual acquaintances. Tim Stambaugh, the man that engineered our Algiers Strut recording is who Brian uses when he records here in New Orleans and that partly influenced our decision to go with him. Carrick was in town last October I think and recorded at Luthjen's. 

It's a small world.

stanger - Posted - 01/09/2012:  21:37:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by CGDA

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjopaolo

I guess nobody has been buying that geering banjo! There are so many and so good sounding vintage tubaphones...

​I just wonder why a modern copy sells for$5.380,00 

( Factory price $7,159.00) whereas a good vintage sells for $1300/1500. Is that because the modern one gets an iron stick inside the neck...?

​Marco

 

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Hi, Marco...

Many folks want a brand new instrument. There are many advantages to buying a new banjo over an old one- while a 70 year old banjo, especially a tenor, can be a real bargain these days, they can be buying a bucket of problems that have developed from long playing wear, age, or a combination of the two. Buying one without actually handling the instrument is always chancy to some degree, because pictures alone can't show some of the subtle problems that banjos develop, and a real problem can be carefully hidden in photos, often times. I have never purchased an old banjo without expecting some stuff, especially worn frets.

But for sure, buying a new banjo can often be a real premium price difference!  But these days, a lot of very fine banjos can be had for under that $5,700 price tag. In the case of Deering/Vega, the name alone carries a higher price with it.

regards,

stanger

CGDA - Posted - 01/10/2012:  00:46:07

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Originally posted by stanger

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Originally posted by CGDA

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Originally posted by banjopaolo

I guess nobody has been buying that geering banjo! There are so many and so good sounding vintage tubaphones...

​I just wonder why a modern copy sells for$5.380,00 

( Factory price $7,159.00) whereas a good vintage sells for $1300/1500. Is that because the modern one gets an iron stick inside the neck...?

​Marco

 

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Hi, Marco...

Many folks want a brand new instrument. There are many advantages to buying a new banjo over an old one- while a 70 year old banjo, especially a tenor, can be a real bargain these days, they can be buying a bucket of problems that have developed from long playing wear, age, or a combination of the two. Buying one without actually handling the instrument is always chancy to some degree, because pictures alone can't show some of the subtle problems that banjos develop, and a real problem can be carefully hidden in photos, often times. I have never purchased an old banjo without expecting some stuff, especially worn frets.

But for sure, buying a new banjo can often be a real premium price difference!  But these days, a lot of very fine banjos can be had for under that $5,700 price tag. In the case of Deering/Vega, the name alone carries a higher price with it.

regards,

stanger

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Hi Stanger,

I usually play on a Deering banjo that I purchased brand new, not for $5380, indeed. Sometimes I catch a vintage instrument from my little collection and play it just to hear the voice of the past, but my Deering is  more easy to play, that means easy action, easy tuning, great sustain, great loudness and last but not least, it fell to the floor three times with no damage! I can't imagine how much a Paramount would be damaged... 

Definitely I agree with you but vintages banjos are often so lovely..!

Marco

mainejohn - Posted - 01/10/2012:  15:40:07

To put things in perspective, here's just one photo of my Vegaphone in its original case. This can be purchased from me for $800, but only if one wants to see it first in my presence, allowing the prospective buyer to inspect it and play it. I'm a 5 string and plectrum player...this little beauty collects dust in my closet.

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/11/2012:  04:44:51

Guys,

Many interesting views and infos above - here are some more – maybe somewhat more detailed and "scientific"  – LOL!:

Let´s focus on 1924-29 - the great years for modern tenors - after/during the later depression and even later the introduction of amplified guitars productions dropped severely.

So how many Vega Vegaphone/Professional and B&D Silver Bell No. 1 23” scale tenors were actually built in these roaring years?  We don´t know about Vega´s, so we´ll have to guess on basis of the total production - for B&D´s we have a great source in my database - some statistic calculations can be made with rather accurate results.

My guess for the Vega and my calculation for the B&D 23” scale tenors give these appr. production numbers for the six years:

Vega Vegaphone/Professional - 12,000

B&D Silver Bell No. 1 - 3,500

Surprised?  LOL! 

It´s my impression, that the Vega´s - except for the addition of (sometimes dubious) geared tuners and a replacement of the flanges over time - were basically built in the same way and to the original specifications. Do correct me, if I´m wrong.

The B&D´s - my specialty - were constantly revised over these few years - you can in fact hardly compare the first version with the last. For any of you interested - do have a look at my overview: acoustudio.dk/BD%20Classic%20S...ment.html

I´ll claim, that only for the first 1½-2½ years of this period these two models can somehow be compared – after that the B&D is of much higher quality than the Vega – regarding the woods used, the construction details, the craftsmanship put-in, the building tolerances and especially the features – f.ex. the fantastic glued-in steel reinforcement of the neck, high grade geared tuners, the Oettinger tailpiece and the famous soft pedal mute – I´m really surprised, that Bacon was able keeping the price down for the later versions – I guess, that Mr. Day´s modular production principle is one of the secrets behind this. Related to modern productions it´s MHO, that the B&D in the late 20s should have cost 2-3 times more than the Vega.

Well – the above mentioned goes for materials, constructions and features – very important for a purchase of a vintage banjo these days. Mr. Stanger and others – do notice, that I personally give a lifetime warranty plus offer free services if wanted for all B&D´s later than 1925/26 sold by me. This is not the case for Vega and other brands - they come with a much more limited warranty – and free services are normally not included.

I consider a B&D like this as strong and sturdy as a brand new professional banjo – if reconditioned it will last for the next 80-90 years also. The same goes for some of the Vega´s sold by me – but only after a comprehensive rebuild – including a carbon fiber reinforcement of the neck, a new fret board of high grade ebony, modern HQ tuners plus a HQ tailpiece.

So much for strength, sturdiness, durability and reliability – but what about musicality?

First of all – most 20s tenors are basically not suited for modern flat-picking. Back then they had skin heads, relatively thin/light and normally only ½” high bridges plus their fret boards were almost down to the level of the head (Vega´s often below or off-set!). And they were picked close to the bridge. Plus most playing styles included only a fretting at the lower half of the fret board.

This is not the case today – at least for the high tension CGDA and DGBE tunings – modern Mylar heads and big-foot bridges put the sweet picking spot close to the neck/rim joint – players are often using all of the fret board – this calls for a higher string/head clearance near the neck and a sound egality/equality, that can only be achieved by a steeper string angle over the bridge – this again calls for a taller bridge and a strong, stiff and adjustable tailpiece.

That´s why ALL vintage and also newer tenors sold by me have been rebuilt – for modern pro-playing – inclusive of a raise of the neck and a possible adjustment of the neck angle for the acceptance of a min. 5/8” tall bridge – plus a recycling departure of any crappy Presto TP – and instead an installment of an expensive TP – suited for a pro-tenor.  LOL!

Well – so much for strength, sturdiness, durability and reliability – and now also playability and sound egality/equality – but what about basic sound, power and projection?

Some guys like the daughter – some the mother!  Ha-Ha!  I´ll let you decide for yourself – please do however be aware, that you in the future are comparing banjos, that in fact are comparable!

Good Luck Guys!

Polle

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/11/2012:  05:01:59

PS!

Plectrum, short scale tenor, ITM tuning etc. players - please don´t post and maybe confuse my "statement" above - it´s only about 23" scale high string tension tenors of the brands/models as asked for - if you have something on mind for yourself - do put up another thread or write me off-line.

Thanks!  I love you all!

Polle

aroblin - Posted - 01/11/2012:  05:06:36

Very interesting, Polle...

Thanks. I had no idea of the differences in quality between Vega & B&D in these years.

Thanks particularly for your comments about these instruments being originally designed for a 1/2-inch bridge. And the benefits of a 5/8-inch bridge, requiring a different set up. These historical differences really interest me.

Thanks also for recently relaying insights from Buddy Wachter. I hang on every word--about the banjo!--from the maestro. And you!

Andrew

haildixon - Posted - 01/11/2012:  18:06:57

@ Polle - That's a lot of information, I really appreciate it. 

In the end I know it really just comes down to personal preference, and I'm not a virtuoso and my playing isn't such that I can coax the most from either of these instruments - so my interest is just mostly personal. I'll probably end up with one of each eventually as it seems I accumulate instruments. Personally, I'll probably go for the Silver Bell first.

Polle, what's the ideal serial number range you'd suggest to stay within? What's your opinion of this particular one - bernunzio.com/products/1116727 ?

Do you think that the Vegas were popular in early jazz because of just the sheer numbers of them?

It'll be a few months before I buy anything, unless a good deal pops up on eBay.

tdennis - Posted - 01/11/2012:  18:58:59

John,  I believe the B&D are excellent instruments, but are being a bit oversold & hyperbolized,  at the expense of the Vega Tubaphone. (for self promotion & marketing reasons)  The Tubaphone design has held it's own for 90+ years, & is still going strong in the banjo community.  I haven't heard of any problems w/ the neck, finish, tuners, playability, or voice.   They play well as originally set up, & are a terrific economic deal.   ( I've noticed of late  that  B&D instruments are entering that rarified state approaching the irrational fetishism of  PW  Gibsons, both in price & rhetoric).  

haildixon - Posted - 01/11/2012:  19:44:49

Oh, for the most part I agree. Also, this messageboard seems to heavily favor the B&D, but it's difficult to tell if that's an accurate reflection of general opinion - I haven't met a banjo player, in person, that actually plays a B&D, but I know many that play either a Vega, OME, or Gibson. I think that ultimately I would probably be just as fine with one as the other - it really just comes down to personal preference. The B&D won't make me play any better, or probably even sound any better, but I might feel a little better playing it, and that's what it's all about. So, for now at least, that's where I'm headed. In the future, who knows what I'll want.

haildixon - Posted - 01/11/2012:  19:48:54

Also - I've looked around but have not been able to find any good resources on this... How do the 4-piece flange Vegaphones compare to the individual flanged ones? What are the differences? Is the 4-piece flange just a later model of the same banjo? I always see these listed simply as 'Vega Professional', only occasionally as Vegaphone. Is there a difference between Vegaphone and Vega Professional, or is it a rectangle vs square argument?

RUBY2 - Posted - 01/12/2012:  00:33:41

As is John, I would be very interested to hear about the Vega Pro differences between (if there are any) Vega Professional/Vega Tubaphone and the differences with such things as the flange 4/28 piece differences etc. cheers Richard

CGDA - Posted - 01/12/2012:  04:57:38

The only Vega I own is a Vox produced in 1955 (fitting a dowel stick, not the truss rods) and I confess that I don't love its sound so much. But some years ago a collector/player who was a good friend of mine lent me another Vega model for a gig. A pic of this instrument is here attached...not a banjo like this... I mean THIS banjo ! Well, I never played a better playing/looking instrument and when the time came to return it to my friend...sigh...I wasn't so happy! :o(
Marco
(For non-jazzfan fellows: that's a Vega Deluxe mod. X N° 9, most likely previously owned by Bill Johnson.)

banjopaolo - Posted - 01/13/2012:  04:33:53

Great Fortune to hold that banjo....: do you know what is the End of Veniero collection of great instruments?

CGDA - Posted - 01/13/2012:  09:30:45

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Originally posted by banjopaolo

Great Fortune to hold that banjo....: do you know what is the End of Veniero collection of great instruments?

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Last year I saw the Veniero's banjos at Amendt's. About 20 days later this collection was entirely sold out, the X9 ecluded...I think it was a personal gift to his wife.

Marco