hobogal - Posted - 03/30/2012:  10:32:53

Hello - I've been listening to John Haywood's banjo on Rich and the Po' Folk and the banjo has a great sound for both fingerpicking and clawhammer - has a bright, twang quite different from the woody sound of alot of OT open-backs - turns out it is a 1924 Bacon Professional with internal resonator.  I was quite intrigued by this as I know nothing about Bacon as a maker of banjos.  I've seen two banjos for sale (guitarandbanjo.com) - one is a Bacon Professional and the other is a Bacon and Day Bluebell with a snap on resonator (they both have reproduction necks but the pots are vintage).  I wonder what the difference is in terms of tone ring - are they the same or different breeds altogether?  

George Flink - Posted - 03/30/2012:  11:26:19

Very different. The bacon prof. has an internal resonator.

NYCJazz - Posted - 03/30/2012:  11:51:35

Here's a thread with all the expert info you can handle on the Blue Bell:

banjohangout.org/topic/220479

pgroff - Posted - 03/30/2012:  14:39:37

Hi all,

OK, the thread that Nathan cited discusses the Blue Bell.

Back to the 1920s Bacon Professional with internal resonator, I have seen a couple of them now as tenor banjos (4 strings, 17 frets to the body).  I  own a beauty (mine is a Professional 3 tenor, but have also seen 1920s Professional 2 tenors).   As George mentioned, the Bacon "Professional" and "ff Professional" banjos whether 4 string or 5 string have an internal resonator, which is a type of construction of the wooden rim that creates a semi-enclosed chamber behind the banjo head.  You can see it easily in photos taken from the back of the banjo (as in the Professional 2 tenor at Intermountain), as a donut shaped wooden "back" to the banjo rim perforated with 2 or more "f holes" and meeting an internal, shallow-cylindrical, second rim that doesn't contact the head of the banjo.

hobogal asked about the tone ring of the 1920s Bacon Professionals and this is interesting.  I think there is a common misconception among banjo players that all internal-resonator Bacon banjos were built to have a particular kind of metal tone ring with a wide, dishlike inner projection that gives the ring a "donut-like" appearance when viewed from the back (or from the front, through a transparent head).  The 1920s Bacon Professional internal-resonator tenors that I personally have seen do *not* have the wide, dish-shaped, "donut" metal tonering that most 5-string players associate with the Bacon internal-resonator "ff Professional" models. This is ironic because the wide dish-shaped ring is often called a "Bacon ring" today, especially when reproductions of it are used in internal-resonator banjos such as Bart Reiter's.  The Bacon Professional tenors I've seen have a tone ring much like the one found in Vega Little Wonder tenors.  You also often find this non-donut ring in 1920s Bacon Peerless and other sub-silver bell tenors.  It's a great sounding ring that I think has a little less ringing sustain than the donut or dish shaped ring.

I found that the rim of my Professional 3 tenor, which was in super-original, clean condition, was cut so that the modern repro "donut" Bacon ring fit it perfectly, without any cutting or even sanding.  So I suspect that the Bacon internal-resonator rims of the 1920s were probably made to accomodate either ring.  Just speculating, but possibly the narrower ring (that *IMO* may sustain less) was thought more suitable for choppy tenor playing with a pick.

There's a photo on my hangout homepage that shows a few different Bacon rims that are not Silver Bells, not the greatest pic but you might be able to see what I'm trying to explain.

PG

mikehalloran - Posted - 03/30/2012:  15:35:42

It is possible that none of the internal resonator banjos were actually made by Bacon. Fairbanks and Vega made most of the early ones under David Day's supervision. Most of the later ones were made by Rettburg and Lange, many at the same time that Day was beginning production as part of Bacon. Then there are those made by mystery makers...

By the way, B&D banjos were the high end models made by The Bacon Co. under the supervision of David Day. There was never a company called Bacon and Day nor AFAIK were any banjos ever marked that way.

Edited by - mikehalloran on 03/30/2012 15:38:41

carlb - Posted - 03/31/2012:  07:01:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by hobogal

I wonder what the difference is in terms of tone ring - are they the same or different breeds altogether?  

---

 Information on the Bacon banjos with internal resonators can be found at:

sugarinthegourd.com/BaconProfe...alBanjos/ 

The patent pictures can be found at the bottom of:

sugarinthegourd.com/BaconProfe...oPics.pdf 

hobogal - Posted - 03/31/2012:  09:43:03

thanks for the replies - so the Bluebell is a rarer model and has a different, heavier tone ring (1/2 spun tone ring) to the Professional. I guess it will have a louder, brighter tone. There seems to be a lot of different variations under the name of Bacon, Bacon and Day from the 1920s to 1960s so potentially a minefield if you want to get one of the better quality instruments - any recommendations as to dealers?

pgroff - Posted - 03/31/2012:  10:38:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by carlb

quote:

---

Originally posted by hobogal

I wonder what the difference is in terms of tone ring - are they the same or different breeds altogether?  

---

 Information on the Bacon banjos with internal resonators can be found at:

sugarinthegourd.com/BaconProfe...alBanjos/ 

The patent pictures can be found at the bottom of:

sugarinthegourd.com/BaconProfe...oPics.pdf 

---

Carl, Thanks for these great links!  Very little there however on the two different tone rings associated with the Bacon internal-resonator banjos.  The way the tone ring is shown in the patent drawing might have influenced Dali's melting watches, not very accurate or even very round-looking.  Unfortunately my Bacon banjos are not at hand right now.  But next time I have them handy I'll get them out, take them apart, and post better comparative pics of the Bacon "donut/dish" tonering and of the narrower ring found in some 1920s Bacon Professionals.

PG

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 04/03/2012:  02:05:39

Paul G.,

Carl Baron´s database (sugarinthegourd.com/BaconProfe...nsert.xls) shows, that both tone ring types were used for tenors - from late 10s till late 1923 or so.

I´ve a few days ago received records for an additional 3-piece collection of Professional FF tenors from the Groton era - SN 5155, 7454 and 14747 - I´ve asked the owner to check and tell me about their tone ring types.

I´m maybe soon going to include the tone ring types for the early Bacon´s in my own database (acoustudio.dk/BD_and_Bacon_database.html).

Polle

pgroff - Posted - 04/03/2012:  06:12:09

Hi Polle,

First, thanks to you, Carl, John H., John B., Ed, and all who have shared so much information on these banjos with us!

Yes, I've been aware that Carl's database distinguishes between the two types of tone ring found in the Bacon internal-resonator banjos, but in the photos and descriptive information the differences between those two types of ring are not well-described.  As I mentioned, the patent drawing is pretty bad!

The original poster asked a question about the differences between the tone ring of the 1920s Bacon Professional and the Blue Bell.  That's why I thought it would be helpful to discuss this issue of two types of rings in the Bacon Professionals.

Don't mean to beat a dead horse since I have raised this issue before, but the original poster's question is related to what still seems a common and false assumption among some banjo players:   that all Bacon IR banjos have the same kind of ring -- thus the description of the dish/donut ring  (reproduced by Stewart- Mac and used by Reiter, etc) as the "Bacon ring."

PG

Edited by - pgroff on 04/03/2012 06:14:49

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 04/03/2012:  07:12:16

Paul,

Regarding beating dead horses - Ha-Ha - I love this expression (not the beating itself) - do f.ex. notice all of the threads regarding late Earl and various Gibson´s - I don´t mind a nice little exchange of knowledge regarding Bacon IR´s - I do in fact find it refreshing. 

The early Bacon´s have always been a specialty of f.ex. Carl and Ed - I´ll however try studying these from now on and maybe put them in some sort of contexts. This will be hard - as consistency was not a well known word/issue back then.

Please do come up with pics and descriptions, once you get near your banjo(s).

For now - do have a look at this pot - have you ever seen a Professional FF like this?  Or have I missed something?  Or is this maybe a prototype for the later ventilated metal tone rings? 

Polle

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 04/03/2012 07:20:09

NYCJazz - Posted - 04/03/2012:  07:22:32

I emailed Intermountain guitarandbanjo.com/ about the B&D Blue Bell.

Turns out they cannibalized the tenor neck to build the new one.

BTuno - Posted - 04/03/2012:  08:54:29

I have been meaning to post questions about FF tone rings, so hope its OK to jump in on this one, since the topic has been raised.   I recently acquired FF 2, #451, a ca 1910 Vega-made model.   I'm pretty sure its all original; the tone ring is the expected bacon dish that 'floats' above the beveled wood top of the rim.   There is not a round brass hoop under the bacon ring.   I used to own FF 2 # 6619 from the early 20s, and seem to recall that it had a round brass hoop between the beveled wooden rim top and the bacon ring.   So, I was curious about that difference.   Seems to my ear that 451 has a softer, sweeter voice than the 6619.  I could never get the latter to sound like I thought it should, so sold it.   I've also followed the thread about refitting modern FFs with various rings.   But was looking for some more exact details about the ring differences in Bacon FF models, and their tones.  I'm glad Polle is going to start keeping track of these things, good info!