DIV - Posted - 11/05/2012:  13:51:12

Being a big fan of vintage OME banjos, I'd like to pass on a word of advice about the "Silverspun" (2 piece spun brass and steel hoop) tone ring.

To those of you with the spun brass tone ring (on the 1/2" rim)....

DO NOT re-assemble your pot WITHOUT the steel hoop.  The tone ring is not rigid like a flathead ring.  Over time, it will distort under the pressure of the head.  The steel hoop is less for tone and more for supporting the tone ring so it doesn't get crushed between the head and the rim over time.  

I was really miffed when Ome owner and founder, Chuck Ogsbury specifically told me in an email not to install the tone ring without the hoop.  My good friend and Ome/Ode scholar Mike Stanger told me why....and it totally makes sense.  

Luckily, I only had it set-up without the hoop for a few hours before I got the advisory email and quickly got it back to factory specs.

Sure, I suppose you can try it and it needed buy a new Silverspun tone ring (will it fit the old rim?), but why??

Just try to overt disaster befalling my fellow Ome banjoists...

Edited by - DIV on 11/05/2012 13:54:11

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/05/2012:  16:05:17

Daniel,

Do notice Lou Bourbon´s remark about the effect of removing the steel ring/hoop on his "up-graded" Gibson at this thread:

banjohangout.org/topic/248528

I take, that he could use some guidance by our dear Mike Stanger about the ideas behind and the construction of a B&D Silver Bell (or OME) pot assembly. LOL!

Polle

DIV - Posted - 11/05/2012:  16:15:37

Interesting...a B&D rim and ring in a RB-00?  That's quite a hybrid.

DIV - Posted - 11/05/2012:  16:17:16

Here's a directly quote taken from Mr. Ogsbury's email:

"Do not assemble the tone ring on the rim without this steel hoop inside, otherwise damage will occur."

PeterJ - Posted - 11/05/2012:  17:01:01

When I visited the factory, Tanya told me that it was absolutely necessary to have the hoop in place. She also said it was important that the hoop was a tight fit inside the arch of the ring. Years ago,aA friend who had the same  vintage Triple X as I do said she tried it without the hoop, didn't hear a big difference in tone and put it back.

Forgot to ask -- anyone try a different type of metal in place of the steel hoop?

Edited by - PeterJ on 11/05/2012 17:02:10

DIV - Posted - 11/05/2012:  21:56:51

As far as different materials for the hoop, my friend and fellow BHO member Dick Guggenheim has experimented with different variations of his own making.  I believe he had good success with a brass hoop.

I'll ask him to post here....(stay tuned)

dickinnorwich - Posted - 11/06/2012:  06:22:32

Dan, et. al.

I'm a little late coming to this party and I apologize. I'm still trying to catch up so please excuse me if I'm not entirely on the same page.  What I can tell you, authoritatively, is this:

Lou Bourbon drove down to the house about a month ago (?) and asked me to cut several rims for him. I think Lou may have posted something about it because we had a great time together. Anyhow, one of the tone rings Lou brought down for me to mount was spun brass. I wasn't familiar with this type tone ring and quite honestly, I was almost afraid to handle it because it was so fragile I thought I might damage it.  This spun brass tone ring was so light (How light was it, Dick?) that it probably wouldn't have registered on a postal scale. Of course, I'm exaggerating to make a point but compared with the cast rings I'm used to working with, this ring was highly unusual. Because my experience is with heavier tone rings, I convinced Lou to let me use one of my block rims instead of the 00 rim Lou wanted me to cut down. Apparently, that was the right decision because I heard back from Lou a few days later and he was very happy with the sound.

HOWEVER, at no time did the question of filling the void of Lou's spun brass ring with a steel hoop ever come up. I never even thought about it until a few minutes ago when I happen to stumble on Dan's thread and picked up that Chuck was admonishing Dan not to use the spun brass tone ring without the steel hoop. Now that it's out in the open, I can certainly understand Chuck's concern. Admittedly, I'm a little ashamed that I didn't figure out for myself that the spun brass ring needs a steel (or brass) insert, especially since it's something I've been experimenting with for several years, ever since Gabe Hirshfeld introduced me to his Triple X.  I'm hoping Lou is following this because I'm 99% certain he is using his super-light spun brass ring without the steel insert.

Edited by - dickinnorwich on 11/06/2012 06:26:50

ZEPP - Posted - 11/06/2012:  06:32:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by PeterJ

 anyone try a different type of metal in place of the steel hoop?

---

When I asked ca. 15 years ago why I had seen different metals used, Chuck Ogsbury told me that he had used brass, steel, and aluminum, and could hear no difference, so he used what was on hand.

Cheers,

ZEPP

DIV - Posted - 11/06/2012:  07:34:24

Hi Don

If I remember right, the original silverbell tone rings in the Bacon & Day models used a solid brass hoop.  Your recollection of Ogsbury's observations suggests that the hoop in and of itself doesn't add anything to the tone, however it structurally supports the tone ring and keeps it "high and dry" allowing it to fully resonate....thus the 1/8" on the inside between the rim and the tone ring.

Thank you for chiming in, Dick-

Do you care to share some of your experiments with us?  In other words, I'm giving you permission to hijack my thread!  HA HA!

I remember you tried various hoop configurations including a larger hollow tube.  Being that the tube is hollow (and brass if I remember right), your version actually may add some tonal resonance aside from being a support structure for the main resonating body, the spun brass tone ring.

dickinnorwich - Posted - 11/06/2012:  08:02:26

Sure, Dan. Thanks for the offer!

Backing up the train a bit, when Gabe played his Ome Triple X for me about 4 years ago, I was really taken by the sound. When I got home that weekend, I immediately began to experiment with the B&D/Ogsbury concept of placing solid 1/4" rods in the inside void of a standard issue flathead tone ring. I built a jig to bend the rod using a 10" pulley. I then went on a tone ring buying spree and picked up a bunch of 20 hole and no-hole rings.

But I wasn't getting the Triple X sound I was after using solid rod. David Wadsworth (yes, that David Wadsworth) suggested I consider using hollow copper tubing instead of solid rod. The copper tubing got me a lot closer to the sound I was looking for.  I built a number of flathead and archtop banjos with copper tubing inserted in the voids in each tone ring type. But in the final analysis, I have concluded that the spun brass tone ring is the correct vehicle for this configuration. There is something magical about it. It's hard to put your finger on but you know when you hear it.

  One final note that just occurred to me. Ken LeVan has invented/fabricated his own version of this type tone ring. I know from my many (daily) conversations with Ken that he is crazy about the sound of his new tone ring. I also know that Ken's ring is structurally different than a spun ring and does not require a tube or rod insert. 

Edited by - dickinnorwich on 11/06/2012 08:10:53

PeterJ - Posted - 11/06/2012:  10:18:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by ZEPP

quote:

---

Originally posted by PeterJ

 anyone try a different type of metal in place of the steel hoop?

---

When I asked ca. 15 years ago why I had seen different metals used, Chuck Ogsbury told me that he had used brass, steel, and aluminum, and could hear no difference, so he used what was on hand.

Cheers,

ZEPP

---

Works for me. I can't imagine a different material would improve on the terrific sound of the Silverspun. Thanks, Mr. Zepp.

DIV - Posted - 11/06/2012:  11:06:00

An aside: 

I have a renewed love for the tone of my old Silverspun Ome and it has become my favorite (and potentially one-and-only) banjo. I remember that I was on quite a quest for one of these old Omes with the original style tone rings.  The first 2 Juggernauts I got my hands on did have the bracket shoes, but a cast flathead ring and not the Silverspun.  I HAD to have a banjo that sounded like Vincent Sadovsky's NEW TWIST CD and I guess I now have that, although I have a feeling that much of the tone of that recording was attained by post-recording sound engineering (?), because I'm still not 100% there, but certainly closer.

 I'm currently using a clear head which I believe makes the banjo (any banjo) more responsive.  I don't think a frosted head enhances the lows, it just mutes the highs a bit.  I find that with a clear head, there is a broader spectrum of tones...certainly not everyone's cup of tea.  The frosted head filters away some of the brash treble and some of the overtones, which I've come to appreciate again.

Dick, you've got me curious about Ken LeVan's new product.  Is he going to market his new spun brass tone rings?

DIV - Posted - 11/06/2012:  11:07:15

An aside: 

I have a renewed love for the tone of my old Silverspun Ome and it has become my favorite (and potentially one-and-only) banjo. I remember that I was on quite a quest for one of these old Omes with the original style tone rings.  The first 2 Juggernauts I got my hands on did have the bracket shoes, but a cast flathead ring and not the Silverspun.  I HAD to have a banjo that sounded like Vincent Sadovsky's NEW TWIST CD and I guess I now have that, although I have a feeling that much of the tone of that recording was attained by post-recording sound engineering (?), because I'm still not 100% there, but certainly closer.

 I'm currently using a clear head which I believe makes the banjo (any banjo) more responsive.  I don't think a frosted head enhances the lows, it just mutes the highs a bit.  I find that with a clear head, there is a broader spectrum of tones...certainly not everyone's cup of tea.  The frosted head filters away some of the brash treble and some of the overtones, which I've come to appreciate again.

Dick, you've got me curious about Ken LeVan's new product.  

looks like he's got it going on!

levanbanjos.levandesign.com/le...ings.html

stanger - Posted - 11/10/2012:  21:21:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe

Daniel,

Do notice Lou Bourbon´s remark about the effect of removing the steel ring/hoop on his "up-graded" Gibson at this thread:

banjohangout.org/topic/248528

I take, that he could use some guidance by our dear Mike Stanger about the ideas behind and the construction of a B&D Silver Bell (or OME) pot assembly. LOL!

Polle

---

Hi, Polie...

Thanks for the heads up... I just dropped Lou a line on that thread.

regards,

stanger

stanger - Posted - 11/10/2012:  21:26:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by dickinnorwich

Dan, et. al.

I'm a little late coming to this party and I apologize. I'm still trying to catch up so please excuse me if I'm not entirely on the same page.  What I can tell you, authoritatively, is this:

Lou Bourbon drove down to the house about a month ago (?) and asked me to cut several rims for him. I think Lou may have posted something about it because we had a great time together. Anyhow, one of the tone rings Lou brought down for me to mount was spun brass. I wasn't familiar with this type tone ring and quite honestly, I was almost afraid to handle it because it was so fragile I thought I might damage it.  This spun brass tone ring was so light (How light was it, Dick?) that it probably wouldn't have registered on a postal scale. Of course, I'm exaggerating to make a point but compared with the cast rings I'm used to working with, this ring was highly unusual. Because my experience is with heavier tone rings, I convinced Lou to let me use one of my block rims instead of the 00 rim Lou wanted me to cut down. Apparently, that was the right decision because I heard back from Lou a few days later and he was very happy with the sound.

HOWEVER, at no time did the question of filling the void of Lou's spun brass ring with a steel hoop ever come up. I never even thought about it until a few minutes ago when I happen to stumble on Dan's thread and picked up that Chuck was admonishing Dan not to use the spun brass tone ring without the steel hoop. Now that it's out in the open, I can certainly understand Chuck's concern. Admittedly, I'm a little ashamed that I didn't figure out for myself that the spun brass ring needs a steel (or brass) insert, especially since it's something I've been experimenting with for several years, ever since Gabe Hirshfeld introduced me to his Triple X.  I'm hoping Lou is following this because I'm 99% certain he is using his super-light spun brass ring without the steel insert.

     

 

 

---

Hi, Dick...

For sure, in this world where the Mastertone design reigns supreme, I think you should be forgiven. The Silver Bells just aren't as well known now as they once were, and they ARE a lot different banjo than a Gibson. Kudos for catching this!

regards,

stanger

stanger - Posted - 11/10/2012:  21:29:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by DIV

An aside: 

I have a renewed love for the tone of my old Silverspun Ome and it has become my favorite (and potentially one-and-only) banjo. I remember that I was on quite a quest for one of these old Omes with the original style tone rings.  The first 2 Juggernauts I got my hands on did have the bracket shoes, but a cast flathead ring and not the Silverspun.  I HAD to have a banjo that sounded like Vincent Sadovsky's NEW TWIST CD and I guess I now have that, although I have a feeling that much of the tone of that recording was attained by post-recording sound engineering (?), because I'm still not 100% there, but certainly closer.

 I'm currently using a clear head which I believe makes the banjo (any banjo) more responsive.  I don't think a frosted head enhances the lows, it just mutes the highs a bit.  I find that with a clear head, there is a broader spectrum of tones...certainly not everyone's cup of tea.  The frosted head filters away some of the brash treble and some of the overtones, which I've come to appreciate again.

 

Dick, you've got me curious about Ken LeVan's new product.  

looks like he's got it going on!

levanbanjos.levandesign.com/le...ings.html

---

I liked a clear head's tone the best on my '73 Ome Juggernaut. I kept it fairly loose, around a G tap tone. My banjo was somewhat louder if the clear head was tighter, but the little bit of volume I lost was made up in the rich tone.

regards,

stanger

FXHERE - Posted - 11/11/2012:  08:52:22

I have a 79 XX and would it have this type of tonering? I have never had it apart to see if it has two parts...It is one sweet sounding banjer..

NYCJazz - Posted - 11/11/2012:  18:53:26

I think Bill Rickard is making Silver Bell style tone rings.

I use an outside frosted Huber head on my tenor Silver Bell. I think it mellows the laser beam like sound of the later SB tone ring and tenor bridge placement

I have a Remo milky translucent head on my Silver Bell plectrum, which has the early (holes inside and out) Silver Bell ring

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/12/2012:  04:24:16

From the other thread as mentioned above - banjohangout.org/topic/248528:

Lou,

If your tone ring is the Type III - the last flattop type without holes in- and outside - it´s meant to have a "floating inner lip" - with a gap between the lip and the recess at the rim:

Due to this the tone ring will absolutely have to rest on the copper plated steel hoop at the top of the rim.

BTW - the rim on Silver Bell´s with this tone ring is cut in a very special way - hard to explain - you´ll have to see and take measures from an original example yourself.

Polle

PS!

The OME Silverspun tone ring is based on the earlier Type II Silver Bell tone ring - its inner lip/skirt has a close fit in the rim recess - for ventilation of the inclosed air chamber it has punched/drilled holes in the lip/skirt.

PeterJ - Posted - 11/12/2012:  07:00:47

Polle - just an FYI, my Silverspun ring (from 1975) is no hole with the floating lip -- it looks like the photo you posted of the Silver Bell pot. I believe I read somewhere that in deffierent years, OME used both this kind and the 20-hole variety with the tight-fitting lip. I don't know what they look like now.

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/12/2012:  07:59:00

Peter,

AHA - many thanks for that info - I´ve met/seen very few OME´s over the years - they are extremely rare at my side of the big pond - so my basic info source is the present OME web site.

Interesting indeed - that maybe OME developed the Silverspun tone ring somehow "backwards" - compared with David L. Day´s original development of the Silver Bell flattop tone ring during the 20s.

But - who cares - all of B&D´s tone rings - as well as OME´s, I take - are splendid creations.

Polle

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 11/12/2012 08:02:57

NYCJazz - Posted - 11/12/2012:  08:39:04

Here's Cynthia Sayer's OME... It looks as if it's a floating lip style ring:

I'm not certain of the date (I remember she said it was one of the last made with the black chrome option) but I believe it was from the early 80's

DIV - Posted - 11/12/2012:  15:59:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by FXHERE

I have a 79 XX and would it have this type of tonering? I have never had it apart to see if it has two parts...It is one sweet sounding banjer..

---

Around 1977 or so, OME started offering both the Silverspun tone ring as well as a cast flathead tone ring ("Silver Chime" ring).

Remove your resonator and look at your rim.  If it's 1/2" then it's a silverspun ring and if it's 3/4" then it's a flathead.  The flathead will have 20 holes.

FXHERE - Posted - 11/13/2012:  07:15:52

Thanks Div for the info..It appears I have the flathead asw it has the 20 holes..

DIV - Posted - 11/13/2012:  16:08:47

Although, the new Ome Silverspun ring does in fact have 20 holes, but that started some time in the 1990's?

But you can see that unmistakable 1/8" gap between the inside skirt of the tone ring and the rim.

Edited by - DIV on 11/13/2012 16:14:27

howseth - Posted - 11/13/2012:  19:03:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by DIV

Although, the new Ome Silverspun ring does in fact have 20 holes, but that started some time in the 1990's?

But you can see that unmistakable 1/8" gap between the inside skirt of the tone ring and the rim.

---

Yeah, that looks just like my Silverspun/Silverbell 12" Ome pot (same color wood and bindings too). Not to quibble - but the gap is at most: 1/16". Also, on my 12" tone ring there are 23 holes. As far as I know - you might get either a 'holed' ring - or a no hole ring if you order an Ome banjo with a Silverspun. At least that's what I was told when I ordered mine in 2008.

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/13/2012:  23:46:20

Howard,

Well - that´s even more interesting for me - being a B&D lover and expert.

I´ve just now taken some measures at a few B&D Silver Bell pots in my workshop. The gap for a Type III tone ring is exactly 1/16" - and the rim thickness is 0.579-0.606" (depending on model) - almost the same as for an OME -  9/16" = 0.563".

So - almost identical specs.

BTW - the thickness of the spun brass tone ring on a B&D is of a metric size, it seems - exactly 1.00 mm ~ 0.039".  I wonder - does anyone have the measure for an OME Silverspun?

Polle