CGDA - Posted - 03/17/2013:  03:45:35

I never saw a banjo like this. Is it a B&D standard model or an instrument assembled from different banjos?

banjoworld.de/Sale1866.htm

Thank you for answering.

Marco

Edited by - CGDA on 03/17/2013 03:46:27

Dogface - Posted - 03/17/2013:  06:17:38

Looks like a parts banjo to me. I wouldn't touch it... It does say 'replaced flange' so some one put a SB flange on a cheap model. Sad...

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 03/17/2013:  08:07:09

During the Depression, Bacon had to find ways to sell MORE banjos. They started to do more "private-labeling' of less-expensive banjos, for some of the BIG Distributors, like "Progressive Music" in NY, and CMI (Chicago Musical Instruments).

I believe "Lyric" was a tradename of Progressive Music. Lyric was one of the earliest 'private-label' arrangements that Bacon made. They were working with them in the late-1920s.

Notice the LOW serial number on the banjo. That's because it's a LYRIC serial number -- NOT a Bacon Serial Number. And the banjo LOOKS correct (for a "Lyric") -- based on Progressive catalog images I've seen. (A good friend owned a couple Bacon-made "Lyric" banjos over the years...) It's NOT just a collection of random parts...

I just noticed... in looking-up "Lyric" on the Mugwumps list, that Lyric was a tradename of Wm Schmick, Camden, NJ -- from 1914-1925. Then, it became a trade name of The Frederick Gretsch Co. (active 1883-1967) in the "c1920s -- 30s".

mugwumps.com/AmerInstMkr.html

I had heard rumors that there was some type of a 'relationship' between Gretsch and Bacon -- BEFORE Gretsch bought-out Bacon, in 1940. (Bacon closed -- due to damage from "The Hurricane of 1938", in 1939). I always thought that perhaps Gretsch had supplied Bacon with "raw parts" -- like unfinished rims, neck-blanks, etc.

But apparently, Bacon was private-labeling "Lyric" banjos TO Gretsch. And Gretsch was selling them through Progressive. (That's some surprising NEW info for me! Ya learn som'thin' new every day... I'll have to confirm that.)

So.. That low serial number was apparently a GRETSCH/Lyric serial number.

Best-- Ed Britt

Dogface - Posted - 03/17/2013:  09:06:44

Thanks Ed....you certainly would know about this.

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 03/17/2013:  09:10:14

WHAT ??????????????????????

What we have here - is the rim, dowel and resonator back from a 1925 Bacon Style B Chicago Special tenor - put together with the neck from a 1930-34 Lyric tenor and a replica un-plated Silver Bell F-hole flange.

Ed - ALL Bacon built Lyric´s from the depression years have serial numbers following Bacon´s standard sequence. Feel free calling me stupid, if I´m wrong about this!

Mark - Sorry - but obviously he doesn´t!

Polle

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 03/17/2013 09:11:15

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 03/17/2013:  09:38:42

Ed,



I´m somewhat disappointed - you know, that I do trust you completely regarding all early Bacon´s - but this statement of yours:



"Notice the LOW serial number on the banjo. That's because it's a LYRIC serial number -- NOT a Bacon Serial Number." tells me, that you´re totally off-track regarding later Bacon banjos like the one in question.

Ed - the dowel stick is - besides the usual Groton info - stamped CHICAGO SPECIAL - plus the rim/dowel matching SN stamp 18521. How can you have overlooked this?

We do all make mistakes - and hopefully we learn from these - I´ve done so often in the past - you´ve so far been a great help for me correcting some of these - but did you have too much red wine last night - I did for sure!  LOL!  Splendid visits of children, their partners plus grand children - we had three great days together icw. this weekend.

But I do have a clear head today!

Polle

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 03/17/2013:  11:08:27

Hi Polle --

Apologies. The photos on Gunter's website were so small, that I couldn't even read the stampings on the dowel. (Even WITH my reading-glasses on.) And for the serial... all I could see were 4 digits. (I couldn't see the last "1" on the webpage.)

I just downloaded the photos, and opened them in Photoshop -- to enlarge them enough to see the stampings.

Let me remind you that I currently do NOT have access to MY extensive Bacon files. Because they are on my 2 'down'
computers. (And that is also where most of my information is, on Lyrics, Progressive, and CMI.)

I'm working primarily from memory. (Which certainly isn't as good as it once was...) And... I made a bad assumption: that Gunter would have an ORIGINAL example of a Bacon-made Lyric on his site.

Unfortunately, I was obviously wrong.

But let me also remind you that I'M the one who usually DOES NOT trust most late-20s and '30s B&Ds to be 'original'. Because I've seen WAY too many of them which have swapped necks, or parts, or have been modified, or have been UP-graded.

I've probably seen far MORE UN-original examples of B&Ds -- than I have seen "completely original" examples.

(Remember, I'm only about 100 miles from Groton -- and there are TONS of Bacon/B&D banjos in New England. And also in the Albany/Schenectady area of eastern New York state -- where Stephen St. John was the biggest Bacon Dealer in the country, for many years. My best-friend's mother was one of his students.)

Thanks for pointing-out my errors. I made a hasty judgement.

I DO NOT claim to be any type of "authority" on the LATE Bacons/B&Ds (1927--1939). (I've been in too many arguments with people
who think they ARE authorities on them.)

MY Bacon/B&D 'expertise' is limited to the Bacons that David L. Day
was INITIALLY involved with:

o The early Vega-made FFs -- c1906-1910

o "The Transitional Bacons -- c1920 to 1925" -- which focuses on the development of the Bacon Blue Ribbons, the early B&D Silver Bells, the B&D Super Banjos, and the B&D Blue Bells.

Finally... I can't 'prove' this, because of my inaccessible computer files... But EITHER Progressive -- or CMI -- DID have their OWN serial number range stamped on their Bacon-made banjos, at some point. It might have just been to keep count of banjos for a large 'standing order'. But the banjos did NOT have numbers stamped, within the normal Bacon serial range, for that specific time period (Late-20s - '30s). And the numbers WERE stamped using the standard BACON digit stamps.

Best-- Ed Britt

Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 03/17/2013 11:11:08