IMBanjoJim - Posted - 10/28/2013:  14:41:28

Just got this old banjo on eBay. It was listed as homemade or folk art, which is why there were no serious bidders.

I think it is an 1870s  H.C. Dobson, before he went to the more conventional design in the 1880s.

Any thoughts, pro or con about that I.D.? Haven't taken it apart yet, so don't know if it says  Dobson inside the pot.

Jim Jacquet

​Olympia, WA

Early Dobson1

Early Dobson2

Early dobson3

Early Dobson4

Emiel - Posted - 10/28/2013:  14:45:28

The pot is built according to the zither-banjo principles.

the-fish - Posted - 10/28/2013:  14:46:49

not an expert, but Id say no

jbalch - Posted - 10/28/2013:  14:59:15

The impression I have is the Henry Dobson usually marked his banjos.  The later ones that I've seen are all marked in several locations. It seems he guarded his intellectual property very diligently.

I'd look closely for any marks ...

I am linking this to the HC Dobson group for more exposure...best whishes!

Edited by - jbalch on 10/28/2013 15:01:06

GerryH - Posted - 10/28/2013:  15:12:36

I have seen early Dobson's that look identical to the banjo you have pictured. See musurgia.com for an example of one. Looks like you made a good find!

GerryH

jbalch - Posted - 10/28/2013:  15:26:40

The one at musurgia.com makes my point ... look for the markings:

Also - The Dobsons I've seen have that characteristic heel cut with fingerboard extension (like below).  I don't see that feature on yours. Frankly, your neck looks crude by comparison to typical Dobson banjos.

Yours is an interesting find. I'm unconvinced ... but hope it proves to be an genuine early Dobson ... good luck with the investigation.

Brooklynbanjoboy - Posted - 10/28/2013:  16:10:27

I’ve seen banjos identified as joint ventures between Dobson and Martin that have this rim configuration.

Here’s one:

mcclungmuseum.utk.edu/exhibits/banjo/

I believe this one (above) is from Peter Szego’s collection, and is featured in the Gura/Bollman book, Plate 2-9. 

In that same book, on page 11, one can see Dobson’s patent for a tensioning system that used multiple screws. 

Another variant appears in this distinguished collection:

billsbanjos.com/brassdobson.htm

I'd guess that your neck is a retrofitted piece from an unrelated banjo, not a Dobson.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 10/28/2013:  16:55:25

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brooklynbanjoboy

 

I’ve seen banjos identified as joint ventures between Dobson and Martin that have this rim configuration.

 

Here’s one:

 

mcclungmuseum.utk.edu/exhibits/banjo/

 

I believe this one (above) is from Peter Szego’s collection, and is featured in the Gura/Bollman book, Plate 2-9. 

 

In that same book, on page 11, one can see Dobson’s patent for a tensioning system that used multiple screws. 

 

Another variant appears in this distinguished collection:

 

billsbanjos.com/brassdobson.htm

 

I'd guess that your neck is a retrofitted piece from an unrelated banjo, not a Dobson.

 

 

 

---

Yes, but a different Martin Guitar Company, not "The" Martin.

He sold his patents to them.  The closed back (in that form) did not catch on and he moved on to other patents.

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 10/28/2013:  17:06:29

Emailed Jim Bollman with the photos, and he feesl it is a Dobson, made by Buckbee:

I agree- quite likely a Buckbee product ca. 1870s ( they made most if not all the Dobsons ). The metal band around the tension hoop is a bit unusual and may have been added later. I couldn’t get any detail when I tried to enlarge the photos. Best, jim

So who knows? Certainly the peghead is much simpler than the examples posted so far...

Guess I will have to open her up and see if there is any markings.

Dan Gellert - Posted - 10/28/2013:  18:02:01

Sure looks like an 1860's Dobson pot, but the neck....?  It may not be Dobson (missing that heel cut), but the style of it sure says to me that it wasn't made too long after that. 

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 10/28/2013:  18:32:32

Just took off the head. No identifying marks inside the pot whatsoever--which makes me wonder if it is a HC Dobson afterall. Very curious...

Should we blame Buckbee and be done with it? lol

Will put a new head, pegs, and nylgut strings--should be playable, regardless of who made it.

Jim

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 10/28/2013:  18:55:59

Here is some further thoughts from Jim Bollman:

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 10/28/2013:  22:51:22

Dan--I took off the top tensioning ring and the old, split skin head. The neck does not appear (to me, anyway) to be from another banjo. Usually you can tell. In this case, everything is tight and seems original. i will post some more pics tomorrow of the inside of the pot. No  labels or stamped names, sigh.

Andy FitzGibbon - Posted - 10/29/2013:  05:14:07

The neck looks added on to me.  It looks quite crude, even by Buckbee's standards.

Andy

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 10/29/2013:  09:29:42

Andy--the inside of the pot doesnt look like someone played around trying to get a different neck to fit.

took some pics with the iPad--hope they show what I mean...

jim

trapdoor2 - Posted - 10/29/2013:  10:10:43

Actually, your pix appear to show a much lighter (color) dowelstick than the rest of the interior of the banjo. A sure sign of a new(er) part. As in the other thread on this banjo, I'm on the "original Dobson pot assembly with a replacement neck" side.

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 10/29/2013:  10:46:53

Sent Jim Bollman a few more pics, and he feels it is probably not an HC Dobson, but also doesn't think the neck was added later. Heres his email:


Today at 10:17 AM


Hi Jim- I've seen the HBO threads about the rim looking like an early top
tension ( Buckbee-Dobson ) and the neck perhaps made by someone else. While
a possibility I think it more likely that the banjo is original, not
necessarily made to a Dobson pattern by Buckbee, perhaps done for another
vendor which might account for a peghead shape , lack of heel cutout, lack
of the characteristic cut at the fifth peg area, etc. I've seen other early
Buckbee products with the odd fifth peg area treatment. Since you've started
to disassemble the banjo you might look for telltale signs around the
rim-heel joint that another neck was affixed to the banjo at some point.
Again it looks right to me from the photos but a close examination would be
necessary to talk with authority. Best, jim

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 10/30/2013:  09:12:27

And this from Tim Smith, who has repaired a similar banjo:

    Great find for that price!  Clearly, the "pot" (here the term is used to mean "not neck")  made by the same fellows who made the very early Dobsons.  The example I worked on is remarkably similar.  I had to take it apart fully to correct some breaks and glue failures.  You've already realized how to replace the head.



It looks to me like the neck was made for that pot.  Who knows, maybe Dobson had Buckbee make pots and he made the necks for a while, or vice versa?  It does not appear to be homemade.  It is a well-made neck by an expert carpenter.  I don't see anything crude about it.  The color is lighter than the rim (rosewood veneer).  Possibly it was stripped for some reason and never refinished. We tend to expect standardization but when that instrument was made, there was a lot of experimentation and banjo making was a pretty small cottage industry.   I will say that on the example that I worked on, the rim did not seem to sit very well within the resonator.  I didn't do any modification but the result was a formidably high action that modern players would not accept.



Tim

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 10/30/2013:  11:51:23

It just occurred to me that maybe we are focusing on the wrong thing--would it help to ask who back then was making necks with that 5th peg slot? That seems to be a pretty distinguishing feature--has anyone seen something similar?

Jim

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 10/30/2013:  12:14:10

Here is a close-up of the 5th string slot.

cbcarlisle - Posted - 10/30/2013:  12:29:47

I love the continuing fret on this side of the slot!

Andy FitzGibbon - Posted - 10/31/2013:  07:21:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by IMBanjoJim

 

Andy--the inside of the pot doesnt look like someone played around trying to get a different neck to fit.

took some pics with the iPad--hope they show what I mean...

jim

---

I meant that the neck was built for the pot, but at a later time- not that it was a marriage of an already-existing neck.

Andy

bargrasspicker - Posted - 10/31/2013:  08:28:39

that pot is a dobson, the neck is a replacement, theres also repairs to the pot with the metal band, the dobson stamp would have been on the original neck. If your ambitious and really want to prove its a dobson you should be to take apart the pot and compare it to the 1867 patent

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 10/31/2013:  09:28:10

I agree that the metal band on the interior pot is probably an old repair.
As to ID, I think we all agree the pot is Dobson. What do you folks think of this idea about the neck: by the late 1870s, Dobson had abandoned this design, but Buckbee was probably still licensed to build them--so Buckbee put their own neck on the Dobson pot and sold them.
That would make this a late 1870s banjo, rather than early 70s.
By the way, the only 5th string neck hole similar to this one that I could find in America's Instrument is a tintype on pg. 143 from the 1860s.

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 11/01/2013:  16:03:40

Heres the latest: Took the banjo over to a friend who repairs and builds banjos. He feels the neck is not original, the frets are not only crooked but in the wrong place, AND there is a bow in the neck at the 5th fret, which means the neck will have to be planed down. Yikes! This will be more involved than even I realized.

W L D - Posted - 11/01/2013:  17:33:38

Hello friends, new member here. Was reading this excellent thread! I was looking thru the 'America's Instrument' book and seen a pic of C. Edgar Dobson (p.131) leaning on his banjo.It looks like it has the same 5th string hole setup like your neck. Although you can't see the top of the neck because of his hand resting on it to see if that matches too. I also seen the banjo on ebay, nice catch BanjoJim!

Edited by - W L D on 11/01/2013 17:34:43

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 11/01/2013:  19:30:27

Thanks, WLD. Yes, I saw that photo, also. There is at least one color plate in that book with a banjo that has a similarly cut-out 5th peg slot.

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 11/09/2013:  09:30:53

Started in doing banjo surgery...here are some pics so far...
Jim

neck off the pot

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 11/09/2013:  10:13:18

And a couple more...

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 11/09/2013:  12:27:06

A bit further along...lost some wood on the peghead, pulling out the nut...hopefully it can be sanded down.

W L D - Posted - 11/11/2013:  08:10:26

Nice job so far, too bad about the wood loss, but I'm sure that can be repaired.

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 11/12/2013:  08:21:53

Yes, WLD, I'm hoping that chipped area on the peghead can be filled in or sanded a bit. We will see.

By the way, Jim Bollman has sent me some pictures of Buckbee banjos he has owned, and thinks the 5th fret slot treatment on my banjo indicates a Buckbee neck.

I still wonder if, when HCDobson abandoned this pot design, there were a bunch of leftover pots at the Buckbee factory, and they just put Buckbee necks on them. Guess we will never know for sure.

Bollmans' Buckbee

cbcarlisle - Posted - 11/12/2013:  08:30:47

But the maker of Jim's forgot to add the fret extension on this side of the pip.

mbanza - Posted - 11/12/2013:  08:50:06

Jim if you carefully detach the chipped wood from the nut, you should be able to glue it back in place.

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 11/12/2013:  14:03:13

Vern--wood chips shattered. Not possible to glue back. May just have to live with it.

Jim

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 11/15/2013:  09:06:58

Well, with the generous help of Eric Prust of Prust Banjos, in Sequim, WA, my old Dobson-buckbee is playable for the first time in probably a century! Turns out the bow in the neck was not as pronounced as it had looked when the frets were in. The main problem we encountered was the top tensioning screws were mismatched and the screw holes were mostly stripped-out. Filled the holes with some new wood, and had to get some brand-new nuts, bolts and washers. head tightened right down after that.
New pegs, nut, tailpiece, and strings, and she plays really nice.

W L D - Posted - 11/18/2013:  15:11:09

Looks really good Jim! Nice job on it! If it were mine the only thing I would have done differently was aged the new bolts and washers.

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 11/22/2013:  17:48:27

WLD: I was considering painting or staining the new hardware to tone it down a bit.
Tell me the story of your HC Dobson!
Attached is a video I did today. Tuning is eBEG#B

VIDEO: Marching Through Georgia (click to view)

W L D - Posted - 11/22/2013:  19:40:42

Nice video Jim enjoyed it very much my friend.

I bought my banjo about ten years ago from Diana Corey in Canada. She was cleaning out her mothers attic and found it. Her mother said the banjo belonged to Diana's grandfather and it had to be up in the attic since he died in 1955! Her grandfather was Bloss Parsons Corey of Petrolia, Canada. He owned the Corson Oil Co. in Petrolia and lived there all his life. I've been able to trace it back to about 1890 when he was in his 20's and used it in a traveling minstrel show between Petrolia and Sarina, Canada. The banjo can also be seen on the Petrolia, Canada website! Inside the banjo when I dismantled it to clean it, on the back of the skin was written 'Thomas Kean Livingston Polk Co. Texas April 20th 1869.' So I believe he was the first owner and bought the banjo on a trip East in NYC at HC Dobson's shop at 1270 Broadway. It now resides above my computer on a wall as a family heirloom for my last name is Dobson. I look at it every day before I log on and I get a BIG smile!

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 11/22/2013:  22:15:40

GREAT story! Wish I was able to trace my banjos' past history. The guy I got it from, on ebay, sells electric guitar parts online. He told me, in response to an email, that he had gotten it in a lot of 50 guitars he had bid on. He is in California, so perhaps the banjo lived there? No way of knowing.

Can you email  me some close ups of yours? I'm interested in the shape of the peghead, and the hardware, and fretboard.

My email address is: jimjacquet2000@yahoo.com

Thanks!

Jim

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 12/02/2013:  19:34:29

Aha! Look at the neck on this HC Dobson!

dhyatt.com/hcdobson_banjo.htm

So Dobson DID do 5th string slots in the fretboard on some models.

W L D - Posted - 12/04/2013:  05:15:54

I took a look at the pics and he must have Jim. Maybe he experimented on making a few to see what they sounded like. I really like the tailpiece on that one! The headstock is also different than the HC Dobson's I normally see.

bargrasspicker - Posted - 12/05/2013:  08:58:14

anyone know where to get original tailpeices for the 1867 pat model?