jbalch - Posted - 11/01/2013:  05:25:35

I'm usually not attracted to gold-plated & restored banjos.  But I think this one is the cat's meow....

ebay.com/itm/Extremely-rare-19...3319d6844

Edited by - jbalch on 11/01/2013 05:25:52

jims38134 - Posted - 11/01/2013:  05:46:56

I'd like to see pics of dowel and sn. Is a silver bell neck and is gold plated?  Originality?

jim

jbalch - Posted - 11/01/2013:  06:25:58

Maybe Ed Britt will comment.  It looks like an early (1924) transitional model.  It has features of the Blue Ribbon and the Silver Bell.

There are more photos on the auction.

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/02/2013:  03:59:33

John,

The Blue Ribbon model had been discontinued for some time, when this SB #3 was built - so it´s hardly a transitional model - it´s more likely a hybrid example put together of parts from various B&D banjos.

Why - we can only guess about that - LOL!

I´ve seen many hybrids and "up-graded" Bacon/B&D´s - some even with faked stampings - Ed has seen plenty more, I take - he has mentioned, that it these days is hard to find an all-original example of the very early Bacon´s.

BTW - have you noticed, that the seller has put on the tone ring with a rotation of appr. 90 degrees - this way the perforations in the tone ring and in the rim do not fit.

Also - at some time the neck got a new fretboard - the MOP inlays have absolutely not been placed "The Bacon Way" - LOL!

Polle

jbalch - Posted - 11/02/2013:  06:49:52

Thanks Polle. Very helpful!

The Gibson guys might call it a "floorsweep."  Or maybe it was just put together by the restorer from parts of various instruments.

Might not be collectable - but I bet it could be a fun player. Best wishes to the bidders.

carl3469 - Posted - 11/03/2013:  15:53:35

I was thinking of bidding on this one is this banjo really rare and original or is it something put together from a few banjos and what would be a good price to pay for it? Or should I just stay away from it. I was hoping  it is all original she sure is pretty.  I asked the seller for pictures of the tone ring so I can better understand what polle was saying but he hasn't got back to me.

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/04/2013:  01:11:15

Carl,

The tone ring issue isn´t a big problem - just loosen the head completely, rotate the ring to correct position and tighten the head again.

As for value - hard to say - some players do not care so much for originality - besides, there have been 66 bids so far and the highest is for now at 1,026 bucks - still with 3 days to go.

Polle

Gordy Ohliger - Posted - 11/04/2013:  07:25:42

$1200?! That's a hellava deal.
I have two #3's and am glad I bought the second.
Great players.

carl3469 - Posted - 11/04/2013:  19:09:55

Polle thanks for the info about the ring. well its up to 1501 and 3 days to go Im still tempted.

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/04/2013:  20:15:57

Carl,

I take, that you´re aware of the scale of "only" 22" - at exactly the same time Bacon started using the "modern" 23" scale as a standard - however they continued using the somewhat shorter scale for some years - when custom ordered, I take.

A genuine and style correct 23" scale SB #3 - also in near mint condition - will these days sell at min. 3K, I take - use this for a comparison.

Polle

carl3469 - Posted - 11/05/2013:  22:12:56

Polle sorry but I know very little about tenor banjos I just started to get into them I mostly play jazz guitar and some 5 string banjo so if you can explain it to me again I dont know if what you said if its a good thing or a bad thing about this banjo. 

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/06/2013:  01:40:31

Carl,

Neither do I - LOL!

We can only guess about the reason for putting a B&D after-market resonator assembly - meant for earlier Bacon/B&D models - on a Silver Bell #3.  Also - who did it - and when was it done?

All I can say is - the resonator assembly and also the rim/tone ring assembly is not style correct and/or typical for a late 1924 Silver Bell #3.

Sorry - that´s all from me.

Polle

carl3469 - Posted - 11/08/2013:  11:03:25

Well it ended at 2194 I'm no expert but I think that's not bad for such a pretty banjo.

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/09/2013:  02:39:37

Carl,

I do agree - especially with regards to how much a professional gold replating does cost these days.

Regarding "pretty" - do have a look at another Silver Bell #3 - the one-of-a-kind 1930 Ne Plus Ultra of mine - custom built for Jack Bland - all-ebony with lots of MOP:

acoustudio.dk/BD%20Silver%20Be...28829.htm

- a tenor banjo with unsurpassed playability and performance - in pristine condition.

It´s btw. for sale - but you´ll have to multiply the price of the actual #3 by a factor of 7-8 - LOL!

Polle

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 11/09/2013 02:48:30

Andrew Roblin - Posted - 11/09/2013:  02:43:06

Polle, is that an ebony resonator???

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/09/2013:  02:51:08

Andrew,

Oops - crossing postings.

Yes - this custom #3 NPU of mine is ALL-ebony - inclusive of the resonator back.

BTW - do notice the size of the resonator - the only 14" XXL example ever built.

Polle

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 11/09/2013 02:54:40

pgroff - Posted - 11/09/2013:  05:17:53

Hi Polle and all,

The ebay B & D did seem to be a fine and attractive player, even if a composite / hot-rod.  

But the Jack Bland #3 NPU is one spectacular instrument Polle.  And I'm sure that it sounds even better than it looks!

PG

carl3469 - Posted - 11/09/2013:  09:32:07

Polle​  those are some good looking banjos you have you probably have as many banjos as I do guitars. Lately I been into buying banjos they sure are nicer to look at and play than most guitars. BTW I bought  the no. 3  I figured even if it's hybrid it sure looks "pretty" and with the cost of replating being north of 1K and the labor  that goes into taking it apart and putting it.back together 2200 is not so bad.

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/10/2013:  01:22:57

Carl,

Congratulations - and yes, you´re right.

Once you get it - please take off the resonator and tell/show me the stampings at the dowel and rim. Besides my general database as published acoustudio.dk/BD_and_Bacon_database.html  I keep a very extended database with all sorts details and infos plus a pictures archive - this is important for my research of these beloved banjos - yet too large to be published.

Polle

carl3469 - Posted - 11/10/2013:  11:44:25

Thanks Polle I will take pictures and let you know everything you need. Should be here by Thursday can't wait to get it should be a wonderful player as well.

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/10/2013:  14:08:59

Hi --

Interesting... About 7 or 8 years ago, there was a tarnished metal-sided resonator, like that, on ebay. It was very interesting because it had some very unique attachment screws -- which show up in one of Day's patents. (But are rarely seen on any of the banjos!) And THIS resonator HAS THEM!

The ebay resonator had an even stranger feature: the inside of the wood resonator-back had wooden slats forming the squares of an 'eggcrate' INSIDE the resonator. (The slats were about 1/4" thick, and were vertically the height of the internal flange of the metal sidewalls. The slats formed compartments about 2" to 3" square. I believe that David Day was trying some type of an experimental acoustic 'baffle' in that resonator.)

I've NEVER seen another Bacon with THAT feature -- and it looked experimental.

AND... It had the original dowelstick with it, but there were 3 or 4 routed areas, on the dowel that looked like it might have had some small rectanular engraved name plates, or such. Most importantly, the Serial on the dowel ended in xOOO. (David Day apparently had a 'thing' for making unique, fancy, or experimental banjos with the serial number ending in zeros. I've seen several.)

I have photos from the auction. But unfortunately, they are on my 'down' computer's hard drive -- so I can't access them.

I wasn't even buying on ebay at that point, so I had a friend bid on it for me. He got 'sniped' in the last minute of the auction. I contacted the buyer -- who said he wanted to have a neck made for it. And then he never answered my other emails.

If THIS resonator has that wooden 'eggcrate' baffle -- it could be THAT "experimental" resonator. (And the metal sidewalls WERE gold-plated -- but quite tarnished.)

Best-- Ed Britt

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/10/2013:  16:13:34

Clarification ---

I SHOULD have said it was a RIM and resonator.

It was a Super Blue Ribbon DeLuxe rim (tarnished gold plating), with dowel (but NO neck) -- with that same type of resonator.

Best-- Ed Britt

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/10/2013:  18:34:54

Ed,

Regarding the unique attachment screws - this example seems to have 4 - whereas Day´s patent shows only 2 - can you remember the number on the few examples, that you´ve previously seen?

Another question - appr. when was the metal cap at the rim bottom edge introduced?  I have some problems finding out about this - so very few examples can be found at the net.

Polle

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 11/10/2013 18:36:16

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/10/2013:  18:59:31

PS!

I managed afterwards to find this SN8426 in my archive - with only 2 attachment screws:

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/11/2013:  07:56:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe

Ed,

Regarding the unique attachment screws - this example seems to have 4 - whereas Day´s patent shows only 2 - can you remember the number on the few examples, that you´ve previously seen?

Another question - appr. when was the metal cap at the rim bottom edge introduced?  I have some problems finding out about this - so very few examples can be found at the net.

---

The use of 4 attachment screws was one of the things that I noticed as particularly 'unusual'. (I think there was some other minor feature, but it's been a long time.)

Again, I don't have access to my computer database, but the earliest "Supertone" Blue Ribbon I had documented HAD the metal rim-cap. (Checked my paper list -- it's #8309.) I believe it was part of David Day's 'modularization' toward the Silver Bell. I just checked my early Silver Bell (#10228) against my Super Blue Ribbon Deluxe (#8519):

The Silver Bell has the rabbetted groove (cut to the thickness of the resonator flange), around the lower outside edge of the rim. The bottom of the Silver Rim is flat and the rabbetted groove extends up the outside of the rim about .500" (1/2-inch).

The rim of the Super BR has a similar rabbetted groove around the lower edge of the rim (cut to the thickness of the metal rim-cap). And the INSIDE edge of the rim is cut deeply -- to provide a 'shelf' for the snap-in resonator to rest against. The metal rim cap has a rounded bottom to it, to wrap around the bottom of the rim, and also cover the short inner wall of the rabbet. From the outside, the height of the rim-cap is .750" (3/4-inch). (From it's rounded surface, to the upper edge, on the outside of the rim.)

I assume the bottom of the wood rim is flat, UNDER the rim cap. Which means the rabetted groove on the outside of the Super BR rim is ALSO cut to extend up the rim 1/2-inch. Therefore... the rims for a Super BR (or B&D Super Banjo) have the same EXTERIOR machined cuts as an early B&D Silver Bell Rim.

(My Silver Bell -- #10228 -- HAS the perforated tonering, with the "faux grommets" -- same as the Super BRs, and early B&D Super Banjos.)

Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 11/11/2013 08:11:33

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/11/2013:  09:58:31

Hi Ed,

Thanks so far  - I´ll wait for Carl to come up with some pics/infos of the resonator inside and the stampings - I take, that you´re equally interested in this.

Maybe the resonator (plus pot) on his banjo is in fact a Day prototype as mentioned by you - if so both you and I will grab/record it at once - LOL! - this will maybe become the scoop of the year - for historians like you and I.

Regarding your description of a possible eggcrate inside - this is completely new to me - I´ve seen a few newer banjos with reso´s somehow built this way - but never a 90 year old example. Your beloved Mr. Day keeps surprising me - LOL!

More later - regards

Polle

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/12/2013:  09:28:13

Hi Polle --

Believe me... I've STILL never seen ANOTHER Bacon with those 'eggcrate' struts inside the resonator. That's WHY I remember it so well! It was extremely unusual. And the fact that it was a "Deluxe" pot assembly (rim & resonator) and the dowel and rim serials ended in x000 -- makes it one of Day's 'special' banjos.

I think the highest serial-number B&D Silver Bell ebony-necked No.6 NPU was stamped #39,000 -- with the CORRECT Groton number stamps and the "Made by... Groton..." stamp on the dowel. (But, if I remember correctly... it was on a later Gretsch rim and resonator.) I think Day was saving that neck for something very special... and then the Hurricane hit. (If it wasn't 39,000 -- it might have been 38,000.)

And by the way... Chuck Ogsbury, while running ODE, would ALSO sometimes 'reserve' the #XXOO and #XOOO numbers for "Special" highly-ornate, one-of-a-kind banjos. I've seen photos of one of them -- #1800, I believe. Or maybe Chuck reserved the FIRST number (#XXO1 or #XOO1) of the new Hundred, or new Thousand. (Just checked, and the fancy ODE I saw was #1801.)

Best-- Ed Britt

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/13/2013:  00:05:44

Ed,



While we´re waiting for pics - here´re some comments:

"The Silver Bell has the rabbetted groove (cut to the thickness of the resonator flange), around the lower outside edge of the rim. The bottom of the Silver Rim is flat and the rabbetted groove extends up the outside of the rim about .500" (1/2-inch).

The rim of the Super BR has a similar rabbetted groove around the lower edge of the rim (cut to the thickness of the metal rim-cap). And the INSIDE edge of the rim is cut deeply -- to provide a 'shelf' for the snap-in resonator to rest against. The metal rim cap has a rounded bottom to it, to wrap around the bottom of the rim, and also cover the short inner wall of the rabbet. From the outside, the height of the rim-cap is .750" (3/4-inch). (From it's rounded surface, to the upper edge, on the outside of the rim.)



​I assume the bottom of the wood rim is flat, UNDER the rim cap. Which means the rabetted groove on the outside of the Super BR rim is ALSO cut to extend up the rim 1/2-inch. Therefore... the rims for a Super BR (or B&D Super Banjo) have the same EXTERIOR machined cuts as an early B&D Silver Bell Rim."

 

1) Yes - from the detailed pics of the banjo in question it seems, that the outside skirt of the rim cap is taller than the inside skirt.



2) But - here´s the famous Super - SN9120 - as upgraded most likely by Dale Small - and rebuilt by me last year - do notice the original rounded rim bottom edge - that will fit the original rim cap.

The outside recess has been made taller by Dale, it seems - to fit his custom F-hole flange.

BTW - have you noticed, that the L-brackets on the banjo in question are sitting really high - covering the tone rim skirt very much?

Polle

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/13/2013:  00:48:59

PS!

Vinnie Mondello did lately tell me, that Dale Small´s favorite was the 11½" Blue Ribbon - I wonder - are his creations up-grades like the Super above - or did he build them from scratch?

Have you met some of them?

carl3469 - Posted - 11/13/2013:  06:56:06

I'll have pictures later today banjo is on the truck out for delivery today. Polle that's a nice looking banjo wish I could find banjos of that quality around here.

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/13/2013:  09:34:04

Hi Polle --

carl3469 - Posted - 11/13/2013:  11:00:32

Ok guys here are some pictures let me know if you want a specific picture Im more than glad to take it. All numbers match 14760 I think I got a very good deal on this banjo sounds great, plays really well and it nice to look at.

Silver Bell Resonator

Silver Bell Dowl

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/13/2013:  11:19:00

Very nice, Carl!

Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 11/13/2013 11:20:42

carl3469 - Posted - 11/13/2013:  12:32:00

Thanks Ed so with all numbers matching we can assume that its all original and not pieced together as mentioned before.

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/13/2013:  12:38:01

Carl,

Will it be possible for you to post a close-up picture of the serial number stamping at the inside of the rim?

Polle

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/13/2013:  12:56:34

Ed,

Sorry - but you´re mistaking - my interest in the Super above goes only for the unsurpassed quality and precision of Dale´s work. Also I am not a fan of up-gradings.

Next - the rim, tone ring and dowel is original - there´s absolutely no doubt in my mind about this. Do f.ex. ask yourself - why does it have the recess at the inside of the rim?

My remark regarding the highly placed L-brackets goes for Carl´s banjo:

Polle

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 11/13/2013 12:59:32

carl3469 - Posted - 11/13/2013:  13:15:26

Polle here it is;

jbalch - Posted - 11/13/2013:  14:05:38

Congratulations on the purchase. That is a great looking banjo.

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/13/2013:  14:53:34

Carl,

Thanks!  This is an original stamping - telling us, that the rim and the dowel are meant for each other.

I´m now very much convinced, that your banjo was built this way at the factory late 1924 - most likely custom ordered - with a Silver Bell #3 neck plus a Blue Ribbon A Super pot and extended resonator assembly.

Only problem is - what will I call it in my general database? I´ll have to think about this.  LOL!  acoustudio.dk/BD_and_Bacon_database.html

Do enjoy both its great looks and its performance!  Plus - IMO you didn´t pay too much for it!

Polle

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 11/13/2013 15:03:37

jims38134 - Posted - 11/13/2013:  14:56:09

Carl, Beautiful banjo indeed.  Any other makings on the dowel (look on all sides). jim

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 11/13/2013:  14:59:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe

 

Only problem is - what will I call it in my general database?

---

"Kevin".

Goes along with other rare and flashy birds such as:  1.bp.blogspot.com/-0vUPAXpTqOY...e-big.jpg

carl3469 - Posted - 11/13/2013:  16:15:09

Thank you guys for the nice comments. Polle thank you for your help and knowledge. Jim  on the side it has 14760 B&D silver bell no.3 and on top made by the bacon banjo company inc Groton Conn USA that's it.

jims38134 - Posted - 11/13/2013:  16:19:55

Carl, thanks for sharing details! jim

jbalch - Posted - 11/13/2013:  18:12:44

Polle:

Super - SN9120  is a really beautiful instrument.

In the first photo you posted, I see a neck in the background.  It has unusual inlay (similar to the 1925 #2 I have).  Is that neck from the Super?  Can you post a better photo of the inlay?

(Sorry to hijack the tthread) ... ;<0

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/14/2013:  00:26:02

John,

With the risk of Ed being more "irked" - here´re some pics:

​ 

Polle

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 11/14/2013 00:26:21

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/14/2013:  14:20:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe

Ed,

Sorry - but you´re mistaking - my interest in the Super above goes only for the unsurpassed quality and precision of Dale´s work. Also I am not a fan of up-gradings.

Next - the rim, tone ring and dowel is original - there´s absolutely no doubt in my mind about this. Do f.ex. ask yourself - why does it have the recess at the inside of the rim?

My remark regarding the highly placed L-brackets goes for Carl´s banjo: ...

 

---

Hi Polle --

Glad to hear you're not a fan of upgrades. Yes, Dale Small's work is very high-end. But he was also capable of naking an entire banjo completely from scratch. And with the amount of work he did, in modifying the neck and rim -- it probably would have been easier to just make them, himself!

There is absolutely no doubt that the neck and rim match. Because they were originally a very-early complete first-generation "B&D Super Banjo". The ONLY major difference between the first-gen B&D Super Banjo, and the prior "Bacon Super Blue Ribbon" was the NEW peghead veneer for the B&D! Otherwise they were the same as the last-generation of Bacon Super Blue Ribbons. That banjo had a snap-in resonator. The photos showing what #9120 looked like ORIGINALLY, (when they were at Intermountain Guitar and Banjo) are in my Photo Album:!

hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...2011.jpg!

hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...2011.jpg!

The inner recess is the 'stop' for the snap-in resonator. It originally had the metal rim cap.

I just checked MY Bacon Blue Ribbon DeLuxe (#8519) and there is one DIFFERENCE I didn't notice before: the tops of the shoes on #8519 come just to the BOTTOM of the tonering skirt.

But my early Silver Bell #10228 DOES have shoes which overlap the skirt of the tonering. It almost certainly has to do with the Silver Bell's new 'bell flange" interfering with the bracket-nuts. So the shoes were raised for extra clearance.

And that's why #9120 has ALSO has "raised shoes". That is a 'difference' I hadn't noticed before -- and part of the "modular" development of the initial B&D "Family" - the B&D Silver Bell, B&D Super Banjo, and B&D Blue Bell.

Best -- Ed Britt

Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 11/14/2013 14:33:21

1 #9120 B&D Super Banjo Style A-1 Plectrum FRONT

1 #9120 B&D Super Banjo Style A-1 Plectrum - BACK

jbalch - Posted - 11/14/2013:  14:36:59

Thanks Polle!

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/14/2013:  23:07:21

Ed,

I do recall from an old thread regarding Blue Ribbon´s etc., that the L-brackets most likely were raised in order to keep the skirt of the early half spun tone ring at place in the recess - as it tended to "pop out".

Once Bacon had started raising the brackets - they kept on doing so on all models - also after the full spun tone ring and the supporting inside steel rod had been introduced/added.

What puzzled me here is, that the bracket´s on Carl´s banjo seem raised more than usual - in fact they do in places cover a part of the grommets.

However - all holes/grommets were meant to be placed between the brackets - not above some of the them.

As earlier mentioned by me at this thread, the tone ring has/had maybe been rotated somewhat in a wrong way - OR - the holes/grommets were wrongly punched. Do notice the large spacing at the top of this picture:

Polle

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/15/2013:  00:26:53

Ed,

I´ll have to somehow correct myself. I can´t find the old thread now - but I think, that my quotation is almost correct - only it didn´t go for the half spun tone rings.

The raise of the brackets came after the introduction of the full spun tone ring - somewhere between SN 86XX and 91XX or so.

Ed - I seem to recall, that the first full spun rings didn´t have the inside steel rod - is this correct?  If so - maybe that´s why the outer skirt tended to "pop out"?

Polle