Jim Britton - Posted - 11/01/2013:  09:12:49

I would like to take a moment give a "shout-out" to Jim Burlile for a great tone ring.

First of all I have never been one to change "set-up's" often. For example: tail piece issues, head issues, tone ring, rim, etc. In fact it's not uncommon for me to go many months or even years without changes. Most players will agree with the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" rule. I have at times obeyed that to a fault. I have played a Gibson Earl Scruggs model for 24 years. This banjo was assembled in April of 1989 then purchased by me in early July that same year. I have played that banjo with every group I've ever played with, recorded with, etc. It has been the only banjo I've ever used. Other than an occasional head change, no major changes have been made. I have used 3 bridges; the Grover that came on it, then a Snuffy Smith from 1994-2011, Now a Cushman. The tailpiece is a Stew-Mac replacement (factory one cracked). I did also change out the tuners to Waverly Vintage years ago as well. I"M NOT TRYING TO BORE YOU TO DEATH WITH THESE DETAILS BUT, I just want some folks to know that I am not the Tone-Ring-Of-The-Month Guy! I have given very careful consideration to the matter of a new tone ring. This banjo had never been apart! I know how these type posts can become vehemently negative so PLEASE don't high-jack this thread! I only want to give credit to whom credit is due.

Thanks to Steve Huber and Joe Spann at Huber Banjo's for taking care of gold plating my ring.

Thanks to Arthur Hatfield at Hatfield Banjo's for the luthier work

Thanks to Kenny Ingram for taking the time to come to Arthur's shop on a frosty morning to "oversee" the work and hang out.

Of course thanks to Jim Burlile for locating the ring of choice for me then setting up the sale.

The difference was immediate. More bottom end than my banjo has ever had and the clarity and separation is tremendous. I have had a great banjo for all these years, But after a couple hours in the hands of Mr. Hatfield, The Burlile tone ring took my banjo to another level.

-JB

VIDEO: Sourwood Mountain - Jim Britton, Banjo (click to view)

Cutting the rim

Emiel - Posted - 11/01/2013:  09:25:23

You're not boring me; this is nicely written...

Glad you like your new tonering.

Jim Britton - Posted - 11/01/2013:  09:28:09

quote:

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Originally posted by Emiel

 

You're not boring me; this is nicely written...

Glad you like your new tonering.

---

Thanks a lot Emiel! There are a lot of options out there. This one works for me.

-JB

jbalch - Posted - 11/01/2013:  09:35:32

Sounds great.

I love the sound and response of my Burlile-equipped Williams' Kenny Ingram model banjo. Arthur Hatfield had  a big hand it making it too.

tjolson81 - Posted - 11/01/2013:  09:43:52

Thanks for this post. I am often overwhelmed by the tone ring of the month posts too, you add a lot of credibility by having the same setup for 25 years. Great sounding banjo there, really glad to hear it worked out well for you.

Mitch Finley - Posted - 11/01/2013:  10:12:18

Jim,

       I'm curious as to why you had your Burlile ring gold-plated, as the Burlile ring in my Williams Kenny Ingram banjo, and most Burlile rings I've seen or heard of, are unplated...and also, why was it necessary to cut the rim of your banjo?

Jim Britton - Posted - 11/01/2013:  10:30:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mitch Finley

 

Jim,

       I'm curious as to why you had your Burlile ring gold-plated, as the Burlile ring in my Williams Kenny Ingram banjo, and most Burlile rings I've seen or heard of, are unplated...and also, why was it necessary to cut the rim of your banjo?

---

The reason for gold plating was two fold. First and most importantly the gold plating "sweetens" the tone. Maybe you can say "it takes a little edge off" (personal preference). Second, The Scruggs model was to be basically a "replica" of Earls. Earls was a Granada with the gold worn off but still on the tone ring. So now I have a REAL Scruggs model. haha.

Also when the Kulesh ring was removed it was already too tight. The Burlile ring is a long skirt the Kulesh was not. The rim needed a little taken off for the correct fit. The rim is Stew Mac and upon Jim Burlile's recommendation i did not change the rim though I considered it.

-JB

Edited by - Jim Britton on 11/01/2013 10:33:49

Emiel - Posted - 11/01/2013:  10:49:54

"Earls was a Granada with the gold worn off but still on the tone ring."

I understood that the original gold-plated hardware in fact was replaced by new nickel-plated hardware. Except for the tonering, since Earl insisted that he kept the same tonering. He even put marks on the ring before Gibson went to work on his banjo, so he could check that the ring still was the same. Gibson also wanted to change the tonering out...

kmwaters - Posted - 11/01/2013:  10:57:35

Most interesting Jim.  I like my ESS as is, yet your piece here makes me wonder about that "next level".  So if the Kulesh 20 hole has room for improvement, would it come from rings other than, or in addition to, the Burlile??  Do you think the long skirt feature is the major factor in the difference??  Anything you can elaborate on would be appreciated.

Jim Britton - Posted - 11/01/2013:  11:00:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emiel

 

"Earls was a Granada with the gold worn off but still on the tone ring."

I understood that the original gold-plated hardware in fact was replaced by new nickel-plated hardware. Except for the tonering, since Earl insisted that he kept the same tonering. He even put marks on the ring before Gibson went to work on his banjo, so he could check that the ring still was the same. Gibson also wanted to change the tonering out...

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Yes that's what i understand. But on the orig hard wear the gold plating was all but gone. So he kept that "look"??? Evidently the banjo was in rough shape when he got it.

Edited by - Jim Britton on 11/01/2013 11:08:40

Jim Britton - Posted - 11/01/2013:  11:04:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jim Britton

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mitch Finley

 

Jim,

       I'm curious as to why you had your Burlile ring gold-plated, as the Burlile ring in my Williams Kenny Ingram banjo, and most Burlile rings I've seen or heard of, are unplated...and also, why was it necessary to cut the rim of your banjo?

---

The reason for gold plating was two fold. First and most importantly the gold plating "sweetens" the tone. Maybe you can say "it takes a little edge off" (personal preference). Second, The Scruggs model was to be basically a "replica" of Earls. Earls was a Granada with the gold worn off but still on the tone ring. So now I have a REAL Scruggs model. haha.

Also when the Kulesh ring was removed it was already too tight. The Burlile ring is a long skirt the Kulesh was not. The rim needed a little taken off for the correct fit. The rim is Stew Mac and upon Jim Burlile's recommendation i did not change the rim though I considered it.

-JB

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CORRECTION: The Kulesh is a long skirt but what is called a "drop in" ring. There is about 25 thousandths difference. The Burlile ring is a pre war cut.

Ebanjo - Posted - 11/01/2013:  11:10:38

Jim,
Congrats on the Burlile tone ring. With Kenny and Arthur looking after things you can't go wrong. Hope to get to see you and pick that banjo of yours some time in the future. That was always a good sounding banjo when I heard you play it years ago. There ain't nothing wrong with improving one a little though. I've got one here I'm messing with, nothing drastic but just finding the right bridge for it and I'm pretty close on that.
Eric Ellis

Jim Britton - Posted - 11/01/2013:  11:24:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by kmwaters

 

Most interesting Jim.  I like my ESS as is, yet your piece here makes me wonder about that "next level".  So if the Kulesh 20 hole has room for improvement, would it come from rings other than, or in addition to, the Burlile??  Do you think the long skirt feature is the major factor in the difference??  Anything you can elaborate on would be appreciated.

---

It's a tough call. I wondered about the Kulesh the same way. I don't know about the skirt issue. I can name ten GREAT tone ring makers available today. I had conversations with several pickers and luthiers I highly respect about the rings. I know the "sound" I prefer so I leaned toward those pickers. The Burlile gives a lot of low-end so you can run the head tighter (if you want to) for more "crack". Mine is currently at an "A" and has plenty of bass. Not all rings will do that. AGAIN it's personal preference. And VERY subjective.

-Hope that helps, JB

The Pope - Posted - 11/01/2013:  11:37:08

Just wait a year! I've got Kenny Ingram #9 that was just completely set up by Chris Cioffi (Nashville). It did have some problems that Chris took care of but now it is even better than new! Arthur built the necks for the KI series of about 25 KI Specials. Good stuff...

robmc - Posted - 11/01/2013:  16:09:02

Jim, I recently inquired about a Kulesh Ring, and was was told that it was Short Skirt. I want to know myself.

Jim Britton - Posted - 11/01/2013:  16:18:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by robmc

 

Jim, I recently inquired about a Kulesh Ring, and was was told that it was Short Skirt. I want to know myself.

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Robert, I poked around here on BHO and apparently both long and short skirt Kulesh rings have been made.

-JB

jswkingsfield - Posted - 11/02/2013:  16:17:19

Is this the ultimate parts banjo you had thought of building earlier?

Jim Britton - Posted - 11/02/2013:  16:24:47

No, this tone ring change is what has set the thought in motion. I now have a great Kulesh ring in the closet begging for a home.

-JB

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Originally posted by jswkingsfield

 

Is this the ultimate parts banjo you had thought of building earlier?

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Kurt Kemp - Posted - 11/03/2013:  00:57:36

There's nothing like having the outcome of a project exceed your expectations. Congrats Jim. It sounds great and probably renews some desire to play doesn't it?

Kurt

Jim Britton - Posted - 11/04/2013:  06:11:19

Kurt, It definitely renews some desire to play. I have had more desire to pick in the last couple years than I have in a long time. Especially now with the new ring.

-JB

 

---

Originally posted by Kurt Kemp

 

There's nothing like having the outcome of a project exceed your expectations. Congrats Jim. It sounds great and probably renews some desire to play doesn't it?

Kurt

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renopicker - Posted - 11/18/2013:  18:28:12

I want to clarify something here about the Kulesh rings used  and I am not an expert on this, but I know for a fact that a Kulesh ring is not cut to prewar specifications unless they are adding material back onto the ring!

I had a banjo with a Kulesh ring on it.  I took the banjo apart and tried to install a Dannick tone ring on there.  It was way too tight and I had to carefully pry it back off of the rim!  Later on I found out that these rings are not cut the same as a prewar tonering.  So even though I had a prewar rim, cut for a Kulesh ring in 1997, the rim was still a little too big for "most prewar tonerings" not all of them perhaps. 

I think the reason for doing this was to make it so that people could not easily swap out gibson tone rings, as these were also used on the gibson earl scruggs banjos of which I own a 1993 ESS.  I bought it brand new.

I was told these were the same tonerings, the one I had and the Gibson ESS tonerings, so I took the ESS apart and they looked identical as I recall, but I don't think I tried to swap them just to make sure.  (One was stamped Gibson, and the other I cannot remember but pretty sure they both had Kulesh markings )

I am not positive on all this and every banjo might be slightly different. Just enough to work or not work.

I read somewhere that the Kulesh rings for gibson were made to exacting specifications and they must be all practically identical in tone, measurements etc... Yet prewar gibsons I have read somewhere were not made all the same size, they had slight variations in tone ring weight, and measurements.

So that is why you might get lucky swapping tonering's but every so often you might get unlucky and have to put it in the refrigirator to get the ring back off or heat it up, etc...

That is why they always recommend having a certified tone ring specialist install the ring and cut the rim.  It will most likely sound way better as well, if you have a pro do the work.  

On Huber's website they say they can cut the tonering to your rim, if you don't want to turn your rim.  I didn't know that Steve Huber would fit a burlile tone ring, yet perhaps it just is a rim fit and they can make some money doing that even if they don't sell a tonering.  Perhaps you will buy other parts, etc... that sort of philosophy.  

I don't want to debate tonerings here, just talk about this swap and install.  Thanks for posting it so others interested in doing a similar install might benefit from your recent experiences.

JM

renopicker - Posted - 11/18/2013:  18:38:04

CORRECTION: The Kulesh is a long skirt but what is called a "drop in" ring. There is about 25 thousandths difference. The Burlile ring is a pre war cut.

---

This is what my post is about right there!  That does make a big difference sometimes!

Brett - Posted - 11/19/2013:  07:32:15

about the Gibson making things to prevent interchange, I don't know.  But, Bill Sullivan himself told me on the phone back in the 80s he and a couple/few others were supplying tone rings to Gibson.  I "believe" he said there were 3 of them (total), I recall him, and some other manufacturer Bill said was "on the west coast" and cannot recall the other now.  It was just in the course of conversation, so I didn't commit them all to memory.  so, it stands to reason it is possible among 3 (or if he said 4) manufacturers, there might be some fitment differences in the flatheads?  Brett.

Jim Britton - Posted - 11/19/2013:  07:33:43

I was surprised at how tight the Kulesh ring was to the rim. I am excited about putting that ring into a part banjo this winter. BTW the new set-up is a month old now and just continues to get better!

-JB

---

Originally posted by renopicker

 

CORRECTION: The Kulesh is a long skirt but what is called a "drop in" ring. There is about 25 thousandths difference. The Burlile ring is a pre war cut.

---

This is what my post is about right there!  That does make a big difference sometimes!

 

---

Edited by - Jim Britton on 11/19/2013 07:35:59

renopicker - Posted - 11/27/2013:  13:04:05

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Britton

I would like to take a moment give a "shout-out" to Jim Burlile for a great tone ring.

......

Of course thanks to Jim Burlile for locating the ring of choice for me then setting up the sale.

The difference was immediate. More bottom end than my banjo has ever had and the clarity and separation is tremendous. I have had a great banjo for all these years, But after a couple hours in the hands of Mr. Hatfield, The Burlile tone ring took my banjo to another level.

-JB

I am still wondering about why he had to "locate the ring of choice" for you, is he no longer making tone rings?  

Just curious, and the long skirt/short skirt issue seems to be pretty well documented on the BHO.  What I was really trying to say is the inner diameter of the Kulesh/Gibson rings is slightly larger so there will be some fitting issues with swapping out other tone rings from a rim with that ring on it.  You will most likely have to cut the rim slightly, and check the skirt height, but I am not expert!  I should not even be allowed to touch a rim unless it has been "fitted by a professional"... I got chewed out a couple times by luthiers for doing my own "repairs"... on violins and other instruments.  They advised me not to work on them anymore, just bring it to them first!   

According to my recent research all Gibson/Kulesh rings were made to very exact specifications so they would all sound similar.  Also they are pretty good tone rings is what I am starting to think... yet this is all subjective.  The McPeake ring is also very similar and I have one of those in a banjo that I bought from Curtis McPeake in 1997.  The almost identical ring in a 1993 ESS does not sound anywhere close to the prewar tb-1 with the McPeake ring.  So maybe there is some fit issues on my 1993 Earl Scruggs banjo is what I am thinking.  

One of the early (1989 I think) Gibson Kulesh rings was just was listed for 600$ .  That's not chicken feed for a tone ring, right up there with HR30 pricing and dannick, others, for a used 2nd hand ring.  (New ones are more obviously) The last used burlile ring I saw was going for about 700$ or so...  

Okay back to the Burlile tone ring... Just curious about those, did he have to find a used one for sale?  Or is he still making tone rings?  

Happy Turkey day and I think I will ask Santa for one of these golden burlile rings for Christmas!  (Doubt I will get it, but it never hurts to ask...)  

Edited by - renopicker on 11/27/2013 13:10:05

dj9124 - Posted - 11/27/2013:  14:23:13

Sounds awesome Jim, of coarse the picker behind the banjo plays a big part in the awesome sound, nice job!!!!!

Hotrodtruck - Posted - 11/27/2013:  16:00:38

Jim, your banjo sounds fantastic! I was wondering though, did you have Hatfield, Ingram and the others set up your banjo with the original ring first, so that you could have a better comparison? Not saying anything against the Burlile, which I am sure is a top-line ring, but a good, careful setup often helps any banjo- especially if it has not had the ring off and such a good setup in some time, as you said of yours..

Mike

Jim Britton - Posted - 11/27/2013:  16:43:00

To  Renopickerr:  the ring was purchased from a man in southern CA. It was cast several years ago but hadn't been plated or used yet. Also I know my old Kulesh is a great ring. I actually plan on building a parts banjo around it. I also saw the $600 tag on BHO. I wouldn't take that for mine.

To Hotrodtruck: my banjo has been set up by several great set-up guys over the years. Lastly about to years ago by Charlie Cushman (who I highly recommend). The only change in "set-up" was tightening the head from G# to A.

Edited by - Jim Britton on 11/27/2013 16:51:06

Timeless1952 - Posted - 11/27/2013:  19:23:19

Glad the ring worked out like I thought it would Jim.   Like I told you 1 of the biggest differences I heard when we got it back together was the Booming 4th string it has now.  I heard you play it both ways & it didn't have that before. I listened to you sound file & I'm sure that doesn't do the Banjo justice.

Enjoy my Friend!

K

Jim Britton - Posted - 11/28/2013:  09:07:13

Yeah thanks K, I've got files/videos on here before and after and you can hear a difference. But there's no justice in an Ipad mic! Ha Ha. Been in several jams since the change and the "questions" come without saying a word! It's only getting better. Thanks for the help. Happy Thanksgiving.

-JB

Originally posted by Timeless1952

 

Glad the ring worked out like I thought it would Jim.   Like I told you 1 of the biggest differences I heard when we got it back together was the Booming 4th string it has now.  I heard you play it both ways & it didn't have that before. I listened to you sound file & I'm sure that doesn't do the Banjo justice.

Enjoy my Friend!

K

renopicker - Posted - 12/13/2013:  12:20:02

Maybe my post was too lengthy, I am just curious if Jim quit making tone rings?

Thanks,

John

Jim Britton - Posted - 12/13/2013:  12:28:21

Not too long at all John. Sorry I didn't answer your question. My understanding is Jim made about 500 rings and is now concentrating on making complete banjo's rather than just rings alone. There are rings out there that are unused, used, unplated, etc. I've seen a few here on BHO in the classifieds.

---

Originally posted by renopicker

 

Maybe my post was too lengthy, I am just curious if Jim quit making tone rings?

Thanks,

 

John

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Edited by - Jim Britton on 12/13/2013 12:31:54