beezaboy - Posted - 12/31/2013:  11:06:04

Happy New Year 2014 to our Orpheum owners and fellow William Rettberg and William L. Lange fans.

We have been working on trying to date Orpheum banjos by serial number since about 2010.

Thank you all for helping with this effort.  It has been a BanjoHangout project from the very beginning and together we have collected almost 230 Orpheum serial numbers with maker's tags.  Our goal was to document Rettberg & Lange Orpheum banjos and distinguish them from Lange made Orpheums because the change in ownership from R&L to Lange on January 1, 1921 gave us our initial benchmark date.  Thereafter, we developed additional benchmarks from Rettberg & Lange history.  Unfortunately, we have not yet found that elusive dated sales receipt with an Orpheum banjo description and serial number.  Maybe 2014 will be our year.

Meanwhile, attached is a thumbnail history for Rettberg & Lange together with the current annotated Orpheum serial number list.

And finally, a hypothetical Orpheum serial number date chart from yours truly based on our accumulated serial numbers, historical benchmarks and counting Saturn's rings.

Rettberg & Lange Thumbnail History

 

 

 

1judge1 - Posted - 12/31/2013:  13:34:09

Happy New Year to you beezaboy!! As an FYI, I just acquired an Orpheum #2 5 string, serial number 8765, from a BHO member that I don't find on your list. It has a white R&L tag (Orpheum in red) and a Bruno and Sons tag on the dowel. Unfortunately, there's no sign of the original sales slip. Thanks for accumulating and sharing this information.  

Paul R - Posted - 01/01/2014:  12:05:09

Happy New Year, John!

I recall when you started this, those many years ago. Thank you for all the effort you've put into this, and all the speculation, detective work, and just plain adding up the numbers (and Saturn's rings). You've gone above and beyond the call.

The mystery to me is what happened between the issuing of the patent (1903) and the production of "regular" Orpheum banjos.

beezaboy - Posted - 01/01/2014:  14:46:56

Paul - No doubt R&L began making and selling Orpheum banjos in 1903.  From what I can fathom there was only one model in the beginning -- the Orpheum.  They may not have had "Orpheum" inlaid in headstock or branded in any way. Some went to jobbers like Sherman, Clay in Calif. and Bruno, of course.  Many may have had "Bruno" inscribed on them somewhere.  From data we have it shows that R&L did not start serial numbering until about 1912.  I don't know where all the Orpheum banjos are from 1903 - 1913.  In fact, look how few 5-string Orpheums with low serial numbers that we have in our list.  Very strange.  The darn banjos from the aughts seem to have disappeared from the face of the earth.

But. one thing for sure is that I have 17 fret Orpheum tenor banjo #2040 in my closet.  R&L did not even hint at producing an Orpheum tenor banjo until June 1913 (though Bruno advertised a banjoirine mandolin in 1912) and my #2040 fits the image and description of Orpheum's "banjorine banjo or tango banjo" from April 1915 new model advertisement.  The other benchmarks like introduction of the Brass Band and introduction of the Orpheum plectrum fit within the annotations in our serial number list.

Furthermore, I've often wondered where are the El Capitan and New Auditorium banjos from 1897 - 1903??  Must be in closets somewhere!!

Very mysterious!!

Orpheum #1 - Four String - Serial # 2040

Orpheum #1 - Four String - Serial # 2040

 

 

corywendland - Posted - 03/28/2014:  12:30:31

Good day! My great grandmother gave me a WM  Lange orpheus no 1 irish tenor banjo with a serial number of 14462. I noticed on the hypothetical dates of the wm lange vs rettenberg the Lange starts at 15000. I have no sales reciept so if this helps out any let me know. Also it has a joseph s banks jr?? Head

corywendland - Posted - 03/28/2014:  12:34:39

And i know very little about banjos especially vintage and brands so i will continue to do my research. If pictures would help please let me know. I really want to firgure this out and find the appropriate ways to preserve it

marc.dalmasso - Posted - 03/28/2014:  12:44:40

i own the number 3805 ; i t 's a plectrum with the regular R & L dowel  label

beezaboy - Posted - 03/28/2014:  14:35:36

corywendland -

The lowest Orpheum Lange tag we have to date is #14648.  Lange took over Rettberg & Lange on Jan 1, 1921 but didn't change the company name to Lange until December 1921.  I guessed that 1922, then, would be the first year we would have no more Rettberg & Lange tags and an uninterrupted string of Lange tags.  Notice that Rettberg & Lange  and Lange tags are interspesersed from #14648 to 15510.  So, a Lange tag with serial number lower than 14499 might very well be vintage 1921 during the company's transition period from Rettberg & Lange to Lange.

beezaboy - Posted - 03/28/2014:  14:38:32

marc - Look at your serial number real closely.  Is it 8805?  3805 is too low for a plectrum.

marc.dalmasso - Posted - 03/29/2014:  00:12:45

Hi John ; the number is 3805 with any doubt ; the banjo is a plectrum n° 2 ; the diameter including tone ring is 12 1/8

There 's the  white R&L tag on the pot  and the white orpheum label on the DS

beezaboy - Posted - 03/29/2014:  06:44:10

Marc - Wow!  Yours certainly is a "historic banjo".  I put it at 1916.  The plectrum banjo was in its infancy at that time.  Most players were playing plectrum style with a pick on wire strings with 5-string banjos strung with just the four melody strings and the 5th string omitted.  With the size of your rim I suggest this was a special order plectrum banjo made for an innovative player most likely in vaudeville who was seeking lots of volume for theater playing.  A Vega special order plectrum banjo from 1915 has been cataloged by Jim Bollman.  Rettberg & Lange did not make the plectrum banjo a catalog item until 1918.  Vega was slower to catch on and didn't include the plectrum banjo as a catalog item until 1920.  I have a Vega plectrum from 1919.  I will definitely put your R&L into our list.

Thanks,

John

R.D. Eno - Posted - 03/29/2014:  08:20:14

Glad to find this group. I've got an Orpheum ("made by W.L.Lange, New York") with an after-market neck and the usual patent # (724833), no serial number on the pot or the tag and a 12 1/8 pot (correction: a pot that takes a 12 1/8 head) that I bought on eBay for about $500. Are these pots really all that rare? The pot itself is only 11 3/4, but the metal collar that fits around the outside and rests on the bracket shoes must add the other 3/8 ". I'd be grateful to learn anything this group can tell me about my instrument.

beezaboy - Posted - 03/29/2014:  08:40:29

I think the ordinary Orpheum banjos had an 11 3/16" head or thereabouts.  Rettberg & Lange also made the big Brass Band with a 13" rim.  I do not know how rare the 12"+ rims are but we see them occasionally (#10230 for example).  They must have been special orders as the rim size departs from the routine Orpheum offering.

Springwater - Posted - 03/29/2014:  09:19:55

Let me add one more to the " found list".  I recently purchased a "rescue" to restore and preserve.  It's an Orpheum No. 1, 17 fret.  Serial number 10368, Red R&L tag, white Bruno tag on the dowel stick.  I'd include pictures but it's currently in pieces with the neck out for a refret.

My thanks to beezaboy for leading this documentation project.

I'll post pics when it's back together.

TLG - Posted - 03/29/2014:  10:55:42

I finally dug my Orpheums out.
Very strange, my no neck rim 11 1/8-1/4" with a white R&L rim lable sn# 724833
& no neck rim 12 3/16 +/- no rim lable sn# 724833
I checked several times , they look like the same number

Tommy

marc.dalmasso - Posted - 03/29/2014:  11:15:24

Yes Thx John for this documentation project

here are the pictures

 

 

beezaboy - Posted - 03/29/2014:  13:01:54

Hello guys.  Lots of new Orpheum data today.

Marc - Thank you for the photos.  Beautiful banjo.  Hang on to that one!  It has the extended fretboard which was kind of a feature for Orpheum banjos and often touted in their advertising.  No. 3805 is in our list now.

Springwater - Thanks for the new addition to our list.  I put her in.  Noticed quite a few serial numbers around yours.  R&L must have been selling quite a few at that time (1920!!).

TLG - The number on the rim is the tone ring patent number.  The serial numbers were stamped on the dowel.

TLG - Posted - 03/29/2014:  13:41:25

OK, that's makes sence. I don't have a dowel on either pot.
On the 11 1/8 , I purchased it with a cobbeled on Baldwin/Ode "C" neck. I was happy to get both pot & neck.

Tommy

BanjoKatz - Posted - 06/22/2014:  13:19:31

I just purchased an Orpheum No. 2 tenor banjo. The serial number is 8742. Looks like a 1919 according to your charts. More later when I receive it this week.

Cheers!  Richard

beezaboy - Posted - 06/22/2014:  14:27:52

Congrats, Richard.  Let us know about your Orpheum #2 details.

John

BanjoKatz - Posted - 07/01/2014:  15:28:12

The serial number on the Orpheum No. 2 is 8742.

Looks, according to your list, to be a 1919 model. Correct me if I am wrong.

It was shipped to me and should be here within two days. More info when I receive it.

Thanks!  Richard

BanjoKatz - Posted - 07/03/2014:  12:20:42

So, I received the Orpheum No. 2 tenor and it is beautiful!

I am new at this so bear with me. Which tuning is best to use? I am interested in playing clawhammer and bluegrass and some Irish traditional.

It is tuned GDAE at the moment.

Jut looking for any advice.

Thanks!  Richard

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/03/2014:  13:32:20

Are you also interested in tracking Paramounts?

beezaboy - Posted - 07/03/2014:  14:11:58

Orpheuman - Congrats on receiving your "new" Orpheum.  Best place to get banjo playing information is in the various player's categories.

Rick Turner - Not collecting Paramount data.  There is a BHO Paramount group for that particular brand.

Topher - Posted - 07/11/2014:  16:14:31

Hello folks,

I recently was given an old Orpheum No. 1 Mando Banjo. According to the Hypothetical listing here, I guess it must be from about 1920.

The pot is in good shape, though someone put a plastic head on it and I prefer natural skin... Once I get to try it out I'll see if I want to put a natural skin on this one, too.

That is one NARROW neck! Well once I have it fixed up I'll see if it sounds good and whether I can stand the narrowness of the neck. The fingerboard was chewed up and someone had pulled out all the frets, so I've flattened it some, and blackened the wood again, and filled some very deep divots, and repaired some binding. The frets will get replaced later in the summer.

I haven't seen many people playing mando banjos. On those rare occasions, I've been amazed at how harsh they can sound. Hopefully this will prove to be the mellow exception.

I'll post photos some time when I can figure out how! It is a very pretty instrument.

Topher

beezaboy - Posted - 07/11/2014:  16:36:22

What is the serial number and what kind of rim tag?

Paul R - Posted - 07/25/2014:  11:50:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orpheuman

So, I received the Orpheum No. 2 tenor and it is beautiful!

I am new at this so bear with me. Which tuning is best to use? I am interested in playing clawhammer and bluegrass and some Irish traditional.

It is tuned GDAE at the moment.

Jut looking for any advice.

Thanks!  Richard

---

Nice Orpheum!

You'll be able to play Irish trad on the Orpheum, but you'll need a 5-string for clawhammer and Bluegrass. The fifth string is pretty important!

BanjoKatz - Posted - 07/25/2014:  13:58:42

Thanks Paul.

I was really trying to seek advise if old time and ragtime styles could be played in GDAE.

I don't want to be limited to just Irish tunes.

I have found many videos to support that it can.

The problem is that I can't tell what tuning folks are using in their videos.

Fuzzysbanjo - Posted - 07/27/2014:  11:27:35

New owner of an Orpheum #1 banjo! Was given this banjo yesterday and trying to learn more about it. I noticed it is not listed on your master list. Hope this helps!

It has a red tag.

Serial number: 10912

Patented number: 724833

KLR - Posted - 07/27/2014:  12:07:28

I own a banjo mandolin stamped "DEFIANCE" on the headstock, with ships and anchors for decoration; this fellow has the exact same model. As can be seen, it's a rebadged Orpheum - No. 1, I assume. Mine has no serial number on the pot, the dowel stick is a replacement. I forget if the original was there. Will ask my banjo dealer about that.

Very nice instrument, quite punchy too. I've another banjo-mando my dealer says is likely a Lyon and Healy, another friend has a Washburn, those are much mellower. My banjo dealer brought in 5 different antique banjo-mandos to choose from; I went with the Defiance as the others were even more sad sacks, needing lots of TLC to get back into shape. The most fearsome looking one had an oversized pot with lots of metal parts and a huge archtop tone ring - you could fairly see the potential decibels coming out of the thing - amusingly enough it was stamped "Princess" on the headstock.    I came across a full sized Princess banjo on a blog recently, that guy thought it was built in Chicago, by Lyon and Healy or one of their fellow manafacturers.  

Looking through this site I see that "Defiance" was also a model from Daniels, a UK builder.  I always figured the DEFIANCE name was some kind of Great War propaganda, defeat the Hun through high pitched string courses, Tally Ho, Stiff Upper Lip, etc.

beezaboy - Posted - 07/27/2014:  12:14:02

Fuzzysbanjo - Congrats.  Is it a tenor, plectrum, 5-string or some other?

dshirer - Posted - 08/22/2014:  08:43:01

I just purchased a Orpheum #3. 4 string 17 fret, no strings no bridge no tailpiece. it was at an estate sale. 

 The Rettberg & Lange tag is white but  the word Orpheum is in red. Patented 724833

on the dowel stick is the number 11905. Fretboard is quite worn- this baby must have made a lot of folks happy. 

I will take it to Doug Unger to see if it is saveable. One more for your serial number quest.

beezaboy - Posted - 08/22/2014:  09:06:13

dshirer - Thanks for posting your Orpheum details.  I put her in our list.  Hope Doug has good news for you.

grumpygroo - Posted - 09/25/2014:  06:27:20

 I've got an Orpheum No.2 five string serial number 12425. It is in very good condition with a paramount tailpiece, 121/8th rim. I'll try to post some photos. Are there any other details you want?

Edited by - grumpygroo on 09/25/2014 06:29:13

grumpygroo - Posted - 09/25/2014:  06:40:10

Orpheum No.2 Serial number 12425. 

 

 

 

beezaboy - Posted - 09/25/2014:  07:31:25

grumpy - is there a tag or plaque tacked to the inside of the rim usually by the patent number stamp.  If so, what does it say?

grumpygroo - Posted - 09/25/2014:  15:14:21

Hi Beeza,  the label reads "Orpheum Made by Rettberg & Lange. New York." The "Orpheum Made by" is in red with the rest in black on white background. There is another label reading "C.Bruno, Inc. Distributors New York" in black on white background.

beezaboy - Posted - 09/25/2014:  16:50:24

grumpy - Excellent. I listed your banjo in our serial number list.  I'm saying your banjo is a classic Orpheum 5-string with the extended fretboard.  R&L was very proud of the little extended fretboard and claimed that it improved playablity and tone.  Bruno was the exclusive distributor for Orpheum banjos when yours was originally made right at 1920/1921 according to my calculations.

Edited by - beezaboy on 09/25/2014 16:51:00

skip sail - Posted - 09/25/2014:  17:10:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by KLR

I own a banjo mandolin stamped "DEFIANCE" on the headstock, with ships and anchors for decoration; this fellow has the exact same model. As can be seen, it's a rebadged Orpheum - No. 1, I assume. Mine has no serial number on the pot, the dowel stick is a replacement. I forget if the original was there. Will ask my banjo dealer about that.

 

Very nice instrument, quite punchy too. I've another banjo-mando my dealer says is likely a Lyon and Healy, another friend has a Washburn, those are much mellower. My banjo dealer brought in 5 different antique banjo-mandos to choose from; I went with the Defiance as the others were even more sad sacks, needing lots of TLC to get back into shape. The most fearsome looking one had an oversized pot with lots of metal parts and a huge archtop tone ring - you could fairly see the potential decibels coming out of the thing - amusingly enough it was stamped "Princess" on the headstock.    I came across a full sized Princess banjo on a blog recently, that guy thought it was built in Chicago, by Lyon and Healy or one of their fellow manafacturers.  

Looking through this site I see that "Defiance" was also a model from Daniels, a UK builder.  I always figured the DEFIANCE name was some kind of Great War propaganda, defeat the Hun through high pitched string courses, Tally Ho, Stiff Upper Lip, etc.

---

ive actually owned two of these defiance banjo mandos,both found here in australia.

grumpygroo - Posted - 09/26/2014:  07:12:14

Thanks, Beezaboy. And many thanks for all the work you're putting into this. I always thought my Orpheum was 1920ish due to the Paramount tailpiece, which I'm sure is original, which I've always understood R&L only started using close to end of their partnership.

Banjorareium - Posted - 10/01/2014:  18:14:23

anyone still looking for orpheum serial numbers? I have #6409,  Number 3, 12 inch open back with lots of inlay, carved heel and arch top for sure. Patent No. 724833  on the rim. Bought this banjo from John Hartford many years ago. It dates to the Hollywood days when he appeared on the Smothers Brothers and Glen Campbell variety TV shows.

Thanks, Appalchia

PS: " now I  need an orepheum 5 string, with a twelve inch pot, next time your up in the attic, look and see what you got"

Edited by - Banjorareium on 10/01/2014 18:23:29

beezaboy - Posted - 10/02/2014:  03:35:47

appalchia - Is your #6409 a tenor, plectrum, 5-string, something else?  Does it have a Rettberg & Lange tag acked to inside of rim near the patent stamp?

padraigh - Posted - 10/11/2014:  07:55:45

Hello. First sorry for my english... I' ve just bought an Orpheum on e-bay: it's a Super Orpheum #1: the number is: 15975. Have you got an idea of the date it was made? And what do you mean of the signature of Eddie Peabody? Could it be authentic? It looks really like Eddies signature (there are some examples on the web...). Thanks for your answer

 

beezaboy - Posted - 10/11/2014:  08:36:06

I think banjo made circa 1923.

I do not know about originality of "Eddie Peabody" signature.

Paul R - Posted - 11/30/2014:  20:20:24

John, have you seen this No. 3? Really good condition. A bunch of photos, too.

ebay.com/itm/321602429193?_trk...BIDX%3AIT

I have for sale in excellent original unmolested condition, a beautiful circa 1917 Orpheum #3 Special 5 string banjo, manufactured by Rettberg & Lange of New York. Has the original Orpheum Made by Rettberg & Lange New York tag inside, as well as the original stamped serial number in the rim, which is 724833, with 'patented' stamped above that. The number stamped on the stick is 8766. There is also the original tag on the stick showing C. Bruno & Son, Inc, Distributors, New York, who would have been the original distributor for Rettberg & Lange.

beezaboy - Posted - 12/01/2014:  04:36:01

Paul, Thanks.  I did see that one one ebay and when I checked our list I already had it listed and got it from BHO classifieds some time in the past but I didn't mark when.  Perhaps the price is a little daunting both here on BHO and on ebay?

Paul R - Posted - 12/01/2014:  20:03:45

Yeah, it seems a bit high. Orpheums don't command those prices - yet. But Vegas (and their predecessors) may be out of reach of everyone except those with the deepest pockets. This might bring Orpheums up in price.

It's a fine specimen. My Orpheum took a lot of experimenting to get a tone that's satisfying.

mipake - Posted - 12/01/2014:  20:40:38

i don't know if you have mine in your list.  it is a #3 sn 14954 at 17 fret tenor.  white label with red letters Orpheum.  

beezaboy - Posted - 12/02/2014:  01:57:51

mipake - Does the tag say "Rettberg & Lange" or just "Lange"?