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Mike Casey - Posted - 01/18/2014: 06:44:10
This is one bejeweled, engraved and carved up Montana no matter what its number. I also thought the #9 was the highest model B&D made, but if they were like Gibson they'd make anything the custom would pay for. Maybe Polle or some other B&D collector will know about this banjo? This banjo would really stand out and be front and center in the Mummers Parade. I wonder what the narrator is saying about the banjo?
BDCA - Posted - 01/18/2014: 07:16:07
I would guess this may have been for the 1933 Worlds Fair or a similar exposition.
Cya!
Bob
UnknownUser - Posted - 01/18/2014: 07:36:49
The SN Database places this approx 1926 with little error in variance. Both 20278/79 have been reported. If this is legit, its the only known...
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/18/2014: 09:15:14
Mike, Bob & Others - except for Peter,
Feel free writing me off-line - if interested in the "story" of / background for this spectacular banjo.
Polle
Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 01/18/2014 09:15:55
jbalch - Posted - 01/18/2014: 09:19:12
This is fascinating - and what a huge coincidence.
A few days ago I got a letter in the mail - with no return address. The envelope was addressed to me as the administrator of the Bacon & Day group on the banjo hangout forum.
I assumed it was some kind of joke. But in light of this conversation, I scanned it and will post it below:
UnknownUser - Posted - 01/18/2014: 10:00:03
@jbalch - Sure sounds like the letter sent to you is a scam to me. Where did the postage stamp/prepay come from?
To the adults in the crowd, please share the "Secret Squirrel" findings... Man! (Rolling my eyes)
Edited by - UnknownUser on 01/18/2014 10:05:36
UnknownUser - Posted - 01/18/2014: 10:18:15
The SN could also put this as a Gretch model which is probably more likely. Thoughts??
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 01/18/2014: 10:27:14
I assume this is probably the same B&D "No. 10" that was displayed at Curtis McPeake's booth, at one of the 3 Tennessee Banjo institutes: 1988, 1990, or 1992.
If I remember right, I think it was upgraded from a No.1 -- by Greg Rich. (Who, I assume, probably ALSO wrote the fake Bacon Co. letter, from "Ruby".) The other 'upgrade' possibility is Dale Small.
Sorry... but the Final Assembly and Set-up GUY, at Bacon, was Caesar Cioci -- who was there from at least 1923 to about 1932. Bacon was hurting financially during the Depression, and Cioci couldn't feed his fmily on what they were paying him. So he quit, and drove a bread truck.
Cioci is also responsible for MANY of the very 'odd' Bacon B&D Banjos, we run across, here in New England. Because, throughout the '30s to the '70s, he used to buy used Bacon/B&D banjos -- and swap (or modify) the parts as needed, to 'mongrelize' the banjos. He would make-up just about any type of banjo someone wanted -- by swapping various necks, rims, resonators, hardware, etc.)
In the typically sexist '20s and '30s, the 5 or 6 women employees at Bacon were either secretaries -- or wound and packaged strings, bridges, picks, and other 'small goods'. I have the names of most of them, in my files... somewhere. (And I spoke with 2 of them. One in person, and one by phone. Unfortunately, both have passed-away since then.)
Best-- Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 01/18/2014 10:28:58
Fathand - Posted - 01/18/2014: 10:30:23
The high end Bacon and Day Banjos are incredible objects of art but as for going for 6 figures here is a link to the most recently advertised one I have seen, at under $20k.
billcampbanjos.com/banjo%20for...20BD9.htm
UnknownUser - Posted - 01/18/2014: 10:33:07
Very interesting Ed... Thanks for clarifying to us...
skip sail - Posted - 01/18/2014: 18:52:45
brilliant post,thanks to all concerned.
Bill Rogers - Posted - 01/18/2014: 21:01:03
The very definition of "gaudy."
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/20/2014: 05:21:42
Guys,
Thanks for the many PM´s - you´ve all got a reply from me - however the "story" of this banjo was at the same time revealed by Ed here.
John - I hadn´t before seen the "letter" lately sent to you - what a scoop and what a coincidence. LOL!
I wonder - is this banjo playable at all? I love the tickle of a carved heel - but how about the many Rhine Stones at the fret board?
What a refreshing thread - thanks Peter (after all) for putting it up. I take, that the out-come has surprised you somewhat.
Polle
BanjoLink - Posted - 01/20/2014: 06:20:34
Interesting thread! Obviously the banjo is not genuine, but curious about the video. Since it was not in English, is the owner trying to market it as legitimate to a potential buyer or just showing it off?
I don't know enough about Bacon and Days to know but wondering if the one that Tom Camp sold was probably a letter (60's) Gretch. If so, the selling price seems a little steep, but I haven't seen one sold in a long time.
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/20/2014: 07:46:46
quote:
Originally posted by BanjoLink
Interesting thread! Obviously the banjo is not genuine, but curious about the video. Since it was not in English, is the owner trying to market it as legitimate to a potential buyer or just showing it off?
I don't know enough about Bacon and Days to know but wondering if the one that Tom Camp sold was probably a letter (60's) Gretch. If so, the selling price seems a little steep, but I haven't seen one sold in a long time.
John,
The banjo in question is/was a genuine 1926 B&D Montana Silver Bell No. 1 plectrum - later "up-graded"/"decorated" by Greg Rich. The No. 10 grade stamp at the dowel was achieved by putting a "0" after the original/existing "1".
The banjo sold by Tom Camp is for sure a very spectacular and original #9 - I don´t know/can´t tell its SN - and its features are somewhat mixed - so I can´t pt. determine its correct vintage. A guess says late 20s/early 30s - so do please forget about post-war Gretsch examples.
Polle
BanjoLink - Posted - 01/20/2014: 11:21:34
Thanks Polle - I did understand that the Ne Plus Ultra #10 started life as a lower grade B&D.
UnknownUser - Posted - 01/20/2014: 17:11:38
A word from the photographer:
Hey Peter,
I do not personally have any details on the origins of the No. 10; what, I can tell you personally is that these photos and video don't do it justice. The fire and brilliance when it moves back and forth in the light in person is breathtaking and over the course of two separate days in different lighting conditions, I still couldn't capture it as well as I wanted to. Truly phenomenal work of art.
Having said that, it's interesting that you mention the No. 9… Fred Bacon's personal No. 9 was in the collection of the man that owns the No. 10. Bacon used his No. 9 to promote his company when on tour in the 1920's and 1930's. A man in Phoenix originally purchased the No. 9 from Bacon and kept it until he fell ill and eventually sold it in the 1960's to the current owner of the No. 10.
Sorry I couldn't be of more help re: the No. 10's origins.
Thoughts??
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/20/2014: 23:53:26
PS!
By closer examination it turns out, that the No. 9 NPU sold by Tom Camp has SN 23164 - it was already present in my DB´s.
It´s manufactured mid 1927.
BTW - the resonator back seems to be solid wood - as on the very early SB´s.
The Old Timer - Posted - 01/21/2014: 06:05:53
This thread has beat "The Onion" all to hell today! What a ripping yarn!
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/21/2014: 08:41:07
quote:
Originally posted by The Old Timer
This thread has beat "The Onion" all to hell today! What a ripping yarn!
Beklager - men en saadan gang klaudervaelsk er det rene volapyk for mig - trods mine fire modersmaal og yderligere ni sprog, som jeg i mere eller mindre grad behersker.
Polle
UnknownUser - Posted - 01/21/2014: 09:13:00
It means what a good story. The onion is based on fake news. Which seems to be more and more the case with the origins of this banjo... Glad to have credible sources to draw from here...
Edited by - UnknownUser on 01/21/2014 09:13:27
The Old Timer - Posted - 01/21/2014: 11:49:11
Polle if "klaudervaelsk" indicates "ripping yarn", that is a reference to the title of a television series made by the Monty Python team. The episodes were wild, hilarious, unbelievable, semi-mythical short stories, of the type that used to be written especially for boys' books 100 years ago. These incredible stories were known as "ripping" (meaning wild and exciting and tantalizing) "yarns" (stories or tall tales).
The letter from Ruby made me think of Ripping Yarns.
I hope that explains!
I must remember to use "klaudervaelsk" in conversation this week!
Edited by - The Old Timer on 01/21/2014 11:50:20
BanjoLink - Posted - 01/21/2014: 13:51:52
Of course, all good stories, like on the Onion, have to have a lot of truth in them to make them funny. I personally like "Duffleblog" - military stories that are hilarious - probably because of my military experience I know how much truth they contain. They contain very salty language - but that's part of it!
NYCJazz - Posted - 01/21/2014: 21:13:00
The incised heel carving is something I don't recall seeing on any B&D factory product & was a giveaway that it was an upgrade.
What are the buildings supposed to be? The palaces of Helena?
The heel on that #9 of Tom's is a proper NPU piece of work. Those tusks are rather intimidating!
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/22/2014: 02:05:30
FYI
B&D SILVER BELL MODELS, INTRODUCTIONS & STYLES
”CLASSIC” – 1923 - 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
MONTANA – 1924 - 1, 3, 4, 7
ROY SMECK – 1927 - 1, 3, 4
SERENADER – 1928 - 1, 2
SULTANA – 1929 - 1, 3, 4, 7
SYMPHONIE – 1930 - 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8
MEDALIST – 1932 - 1
SWING – 1938 - 1
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/01/2014: 06:16:52
John,
It will be interesting following the auction.
I don´t have a clue/idea about how high the bidders will go - but I do pretty much expect, that the highest bid will not come close to the reserve.
Polle
jonredmond - Posted - 02/01/2014: 06:51:03
Liberace threw up on a banjo.
UnknownUser - Posted - 02/01/2014: 06:54:16
I know a guy who bought a banjo from a farmer and had to sell it, he just couldnt get away from the smell of horse shyte when it rained. Could this be it...
Edited by - UnknownUser on 02/01/2014 06:54:50
jbalch - Posted - 02/01/2014: 07:46:02
Seriously - I have no financial interest in this banjo or the sale. But I do know the seller and I have seen it. The #10 is as described: a truly magnificent, one-of-a-kind, customized work of art.
The owner of this instrument has quite a nice collection of B&D banjos. He is an awesome player in the style of Perry Bechtel. My friend did indeed formerly own and perform with the genuine Fred Bacon # 9 plectrum that ultimately ended up in the Tsmura collection. So he has a lot of B&D experience under his belt. The owner of this banjo and Greg Rich share a fanciful sense of adventure and humor. The #10 and the tale of its creation was a collaboration between those two unique and wonderfully talented folks.
I don't know what the reserve is - or if it will be met. But it will be fun to watch and see.
Best wishes!
Edited by - jbalch on 02/01/2014 07:51:32
trapdoor2 - Posted - 02/01/2014: 08:09:18
Too funny...
From the ebay listing: "When the case is opened, people gasp..."
I'm sure they do. Some in surprise, some in delight, some in dismay, some in horror. Put me down for surprise with just a tad of nausea. 
Seriously, I like that the creative team had fun with this. It is a very cool thing...just not my cuppa.
If I were to commission something like this, I would want to start the neck from scratch and leave even more doubt as to its origin (though its ultimate origin would be marked somewhere). I love sneaky jokes like this...as long as the punchline is ultimately delivered.
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/01/2014: 09:09:02
Marc,
Just wait for the tremendous "gasp" by all BG-guys - when Earl´s hybrid/floor sweep Gibson will be displayed in public or maybe even come up for sale at eBay.
Polle
jbalch - Posted - 02/01/2014: 10:05:32
I certainly let out a "gasp.' when I first saw the #10. In my younger days, I didn't get the whole highly decorated B&D thing. For us bluegrass and old-time types it is a bit out of our normal comfort zone. But it is an acquired taste and when you do get it ... It really grows on you (at least it has for me). I admit: I really love all things B&D.
I knew the story of the #10 before I met Greg Rich in person.
A few years ago at IBMA in Nashville, I went to the food court for a sandwich and saw Greg sitting alone at a table. So ... I walked over, sat down beside him, and said: "You don't know me ... but I recently saw something you might be interested in - a Bacon & Day Ne Plus Ultra #10. Without hesitation Greg said: "That is the only banjo on earth that will scratch a belt buckle"
There are so many rinestones on the resonator of the #10 - he might have been right!
trapdoor2 - Posted - 02/01/2014: 13:18:42
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
Marc,
Just wait for the tremendous "gasp" by all BG-guys - when Earl´s hybrid/floor sweep Gibson will be displayed in public or maybe even come up for sale at eBay.
Polle
Nah, as you well know, for many things it is the DNA attached not the thing itself.
Want to see me gasp and pass out? Hand me a NPU #6...five-string.
NYCJazz - Posted - 02/01/2014: 13:45:55
I hope whomever is the high bidder understands that there is no such thing as a "#10"... that the identity on the dowelstick has been altered. The basic construction is a Silver Bell, but not NPU.
It seems like the listing, to the normal bidding public, is rather misleading.
BDCA - Posted - 02/01/2014: 21:59:39
I can't imagine any one "normal" bidding on this instrument!
Cya!
Bob
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/02/2014: 01:41:18
quote:
Originally posted by trapdoor2
Want to see me gasp and pass out? Hand me a NPU #6...five-string.
Marc,
I know / have heard of only 3-4 original examples - here´s one of them (except of course for the Clamshell TP):
Polle
trapdoor2 - Posted - 02/02/2014: 04:38:32
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
quote:
Originally posted by trapdoor2
Want to see me gasp and pass out? Hand me a NPU #6...five-string.
Marc,
I know / have heard of only 3-4 original examples - here´s one of them (except of course for the Clamshell TP):
Polle
GASP!
I'm sorry, no passing out. I did have to go check my blood pressure.
Actually, I was hoping you might post a pic of one. I'm surprised there are even 3 - 4 of them. Lovely!
Thanks!
jbalch - Posted - 02/02/2014: 05:21:34
I think the number 6 is my personal favorite of all the styles. And ... with an ebony neck - it must be extremely powerful.
NYCJazz - Posted - 02/02/2014: 18:06:17
The only original 5-string Silver Bell I've ever seen was a mint #3. Very beautiful.
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/05/2014: 01:48:43
quote:
Originally posted by jbalch
I think the number 6 is my personal favorite of all the styles. And ... with an ebony neck - it must be extremely powerful.
John,
Are you a member of The American Banjo Fraternity? If so - go to some of their rally´s - you might be lucky meeting/seeing a somewhat limited number of original B&D Silver Bell 5-stringers - including two #6 NPU´s. Of course all strung with nylon/gut and picked with bare fingers - LOL!
The example shown above is the only example I´ve seen - mind you set up and used for BG.
BTW - a banjo buddy/BHO member did recently mail me a fantastic 1912 recording of Fred Bacon - a leading 5-string virtuoso back then - I can of course not publish this - but if interested I´ll ask for my buddy´s permission sharing it with you.
Polle
NYCJazz - Posted - 02/17/2014: 00:12:23
Interesting eBay listing.
No notice of it actually being an upgraded #1. And the fact that there is no such thing as a #10. If a #10 HAD come out of Groton, it would have been made of significantly better wood than is in this thing. There is a LOT of info missing from this listing. I hope if a bidder wins this, that he or she sees this thread before shelling out the $$$.
Also, I'd dispute the idea that Bacon made 1 plectrum for every 100 tenors. I believe the figure is more like 1 out of 10 were plectrum.
