kmwaters - Posted - 02/04/2014:  06:48:25

Interesting piece here.

Seeger Article - National Review

beegee - Posted - 02/04/2014:  07:17:34

In deference to the BHO non-political rules, I will refrain from voicing my opinion on the late Mr. Seegar. 

kmwaters - Posted - 02/04/2014:  08:14:45

Good move Beegee. I just put this out there as I felt it was good reading and most interesting history.

banjo bill-e - Posted - 02/04/2014:  08:32:46

If only some of those who are closer to my politics could have the joy in their heart that Pete displayed!

Can the right cause with a heart full of hate be any better than the wrong cause with a heart full of love? I truly don't know the answer to that one. But since most *all* causes are just pretenses for those unseen who pull the strings for their own purposes, I tend to judge people more on their character than their cause these days.

chuckv97 - Posted - 02/04/2014:  08:35:29

What else would you expect from the "National Review".? I'd like to hear a rebuttal - in print somewhere,not on this forum,pls . It's interesting that the Almanac Singers also included Woody Guthrie. Didn't know Kristofferson was active on that  front either. Don't think Pete believed in the evils of totalitarian Communism- like he said ,he was a small "c" communist. But that term carries a lot of negative baggage ,small "c" or not. I guess Pete's gone long enough now- we can start picking him apart. I was surprised this didn't start earlier in the week. I'll shut up now.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 02/04/2014:  09:02:47

No politics, please, or this topic will get locked.  Talk about Pete, not his politics.

Paul R - Posted - 02/04/2014:  09:13:25

It's just a polemic. Seeger's personal history is much too complex to fit into a short attack article, beginning with his childhood experiences at a private high school. Let's move on.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 02/04/2014:  10:14:40

The National Review has not been worth reading since the death of William F. Buckley.

kmwaters - Posted - 02/04/2014:  10:38:22

I guess perhaps I should not have started the post. I felt it was more historical than political. Please just take it at face value, and I am not taking any particular position on any of the issues. More or less an expanded explanation on why Pete was controversial in a few ways. Not promoting any publications either.

Thanks to all.

mrphysics55 - Posted - 02/04/2014:  11:24:53

Thanks for posting.

timmib - Posted - 02/04/2014:  14:54:33

Greetings kmwaters,

Thanks for sharing. It is a reminder that Pete's songs never outlive their usefulness.

Be well,

Kim

jeeprev - Posted - 02/04/2014:  16:28:12

truth is always appropriate, although not always appreciated.  the guy could entertain but that makes him no less a communist.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 02/04/2014:  16:48:11

If you want truth - the truth is that Pete Seeger left the American Communist Party while it was still a legal political party in the US. That is the truth.

Have none of those casting stones ever been wrong about anything?

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 02/05/2014:  03:38:57

I disagree with a premise of the article: “ but its not enough to say ….. “that Seeger was wrong for the right reasons”.”

Long ago I heard a quote from Thomas Jefferson that said “ a difference in opinion was not necessarily a difference in principle.” It seems to me that if everyone understood this truism that everyone’s blood pressure would be much lower and our nation would function much better.

I read a quote by Seeger where he said his favorite 4 letter word was "love" and his next favorite word was "share". I am a Christian conservative. However, if I could live these two words that Seeger espoused – love and share, I would serve my two beliefs in a much truer fashion. IMO basic beliefs like this of Seeger transcended politics. They are central to what we celebrate of Pete – his love, his joy, his consistency, his spirit, his truthfulness, his beauty,  and his dedication to others.   Seeger’s life called us to be better people and to me that is the legacy we celebrate and remember.

Ken  

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 02/05/2014:  04:30:18

Here is a great article I just found that puts the National Review article into better perspective:

nysun.com/arts/seeger-speaks-a...in/61666/

Ken

 

twelvefret - Posted - 02/05/2014:  04:56:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

If you want truth - the truth is that Pete Seeger left the American Communist Party while it was still a legal political party in the US. That is the truth.

Have none of those casting stones ever been wrong about anything?

---

That's a good point, Tony. We should not force Pete Seeger to have to live at a greater standard than ourselves. The rest of the "casting stones" analogy is to stop sinning so nothing worse happens to you.

Seeger did apologize in 1997 for thinking Stalin was "simply a hard driver" and not a "cruel misleader" . I have to interpret this literally that Mr. Seeger considered driving your people hard to accomplish you ideology an acceptable strategy.

If his two favorite four letter words were "love" and "sharing" we must assume he meant by any means necessary.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 02/05/2014:  05:04:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by twelvefret

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

If you want truth - the truth is that Pete Seeger left the American Communist Party while it was still a legal political party in the US. That is the truth.

Have none of those casting stones ever been wrong about anything?

---

That's a good point, Tony. We should not force Pete Seeger to have to live at a greater standard than ourselves. The rest of the "casting stones" analogy is to stop sinning so nothing worse happens to you.

Seeger did apologize in 1997 for thinking Stalin was "simply a hard driver" and not a "cruel misleader" . I have to interpret this literally that Mr. Seeger considered driving your people hard to accomplish you ideology an acceptable strategy.

If his two favorite four letter words were "love" and "sharing" we must assume he meant by any means necessary.

---

You know the old saying about what happens when you assume.

Please read the article that I posted above to put into proper perspective.

Ken

Edited by - From Greylock to Bean Blossom on 02/05/2014 05:08:27

specs - Posted - 02/05/2014:  05:43:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjo bill-e

If only some of those who are closer to my politics could have the joy in their heart that Pete displayed!

---

His friend arlo guthrie is pretty much the opposite of a communist: a libertarian.   If those 2 with such different politics can be friends and get together to play good music; we all should be able to.

alubin - Posted - 02/05/2014:  09:56:28

I think this Atlantic article is pretty well balanced: theatlantic.com/politics/archi...m/283444/

chip arnold - Posted - 02/05/2014:  10:15:19

Thank you, Tony.

twelvefret - Posted - 02/05/2014:  10:49:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

quote

:

---

Originally posted by twelvefret

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

If you want truth - the truth is that Pete Seeger left the American Communist Party while it was still a legal political party in the US. That is the truth.

Have none of those casting stones ever been wrong about anything?

---

That's a good point, Tony. We should not force Pete Seeger to have to live at a greater standard than ourselves. The rest of the "casting stones" analogy is to stop sinning so nothing worse happens to you.

Seeger did apologize in 1997 for thinking Stalin was "simply a hard driver" and not a "cruel misleader" . I have to interpret this literally that Mr. Seeger considered driving your people hard to accomplish you ideology an acceptable strategy.

If his two favorite four letter words were "love" and "sharing" we must assume he meant by any means necessary.

---

You know the old saying about what happens when you assume.

Please read the article that I posted above to put into proper perspective.

Ken

---

I read the article, Ken. For me, it is more important in forming an opinion about what a person says than what others say about them. I also respect Mr. Seeger enough to interpret his words literally.

When making his apology in 1997, these were his words,

"Today I'll apologize for a number of things, such as thinking that Stalin was simply a 'hard-driver' and not a supremely cruel misleader. I guess anyone who calls himself or herself a Christian should be prepared to apologize for the Inquisition, the burning of heretics by Protestants, the slaughter of Jews and Muslims by Crusaders. White people in the U.S.A. could consider apologizing for stealing land from Native Americans and for enslaving blacks … for putting Japanese-Americans in concentration camps—let's look ahead."

1. He compares his wrongs as an individual to the wrongs of groups of people. All Christians did not condone those acts against others just as all Jews or Muslims are not representative of acts of brutality toward Chrisitians and each other.

2. All white people did not own slaves or condone slavery. The many abolitionists were white and had religious affiliations and influences.

3. Did Native Americans ever war against each other? Did one tribe take the others land? If so, perhaps they should apologize for taking the others tribes land.

4. Did Mr. Seeger know the Cherokees owned slaves? Like Tony reminded us, we should not be throwing stones. In some sense, Mr. Seeger was using his opportunity to apologize as a stage to throw stones at others. Sorry, I don't see the love, but I do see the sharing.

5. Ronald Reagan did apologize for the what was done during WW 2 in 1988 nine years before Mr. Seeger made his apology.

We teach our children to take responsibility for their actions, to account for what they did without bringing the whole play ground into the matter. You can judge for yourself if Pete Seeger's apology was consistent with how you teach your children.

Dr B - Posted - 02/05/2014:  11:15:34

Pete Seeger quotes

“Throughout history, the leaders of countries have been very particular of what songs should be sung. We know the power of songs.”

 

 “I think these are very improper questions for any American to be asked, especially under such compulsion as this. I would be very glad to tell you my life if you want to hear of it.”

 

 “I have sung in hobo jungles, and I have sung for the Rockefellers, and I am proud that I have never refused to sing for anybody.”

 

“I feel that my whole life is a contribution.”

 

“I decline to discuss, under compulsion, where I have sung, and who has sung my songs, and who else has sung with me, and the people I have known.”

 

 “I believe that my choosing my present course I do no dishonor to them, or to those who may come after me.”

 

 “Education is when you read the fine print experience is what you get when you don't.”

 

 “But I decline to say who has ever listened to them, who has written them, or other people who have sung them.”

 

“Do you know the difference between education and experience Education is when you read the fine print experience is what you get when you don't.”

 

 “In a few lines of poetry he captured one of the great contradictions of the world the heroism of people doing something, even knowing it was a crazy something. And he showed how the establishment has used music for thousands of years to support its way of thinking.”

 

 “Songs wont save the planet, but neither will books or speeches. Songs are sneaky things they can slip across borders.”

 

 “Songs wont save the planet, but neither will books or speeches. Songs are sneaky things they can slip across borders.”

 

“There was so much political music going on it was the height of the anti-nuke stuff, ... there should be more places for people to do this kind of music.”

 

“I fought for peace in the fifties.”

 

“Down through the centuries, this trick has been tried by various establishments throughout the world. They force people to get involved in the kind of examination that has only one aim and that is to stamp out dissent.”

 

“One of the things I'm most proud of about my country is the fact that we did lick McCarthyism back in the fifties.”

 

“I love my country very dearly, and I greatly resent the implication that some of the places that I have sung and some of the people that I have known, and some of my opinions, whether they are religious or philosophical, make me less of an American.”

 

“I like to say I'm more conservative than Goldwater. He just wanted to turn the clock back to when there was no income tax.”

 

 “But if by some freak of history communism had caught up with this country, I would have been one of the first people thrown in jail.”

 

 “I still call myself a communist, because communism is no more what Russia made of it than Christianity is what the churches make of it.”

 

“I am saying voluntarily that I have sung for almost every religious group in the country, from Jewish and Catholic, and Presbyterian and Holy Rollers and Revival Churches.”

 

“I want to turn the clock back to when people lived in small villages and took care of each other.”

 

“Again, I say I will be glad to tell what songs I have ever sung, because singing is my business.”

 

 “I have sung for Americans of every political persuasion, and I am proud that I never refuse to sing to an audience, no matter what religion or color of their skin, or situation in life.”

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 02/05/2014:  13:02:44

Chuck,

First thank you for a well reasoned, well written response and a civil discussion.

But again our views part. You take the man literally but  we disagree on our interpretation of what he meant. To me the keys of his apology were 1. that he did apologize and that 2, he was going to move on and and keep working. When he sited all the groups, I think he was just making the statement that he was part of a  group and like other group members, he messed up. And like like other groups he/they should apologize. That is what he was doing as an individual in a group.  IMO that would have been consistent with his view on how those groups and the members in the group should react. It is interesting to note that he is a member of some of the other groups he cited, so I don't think he was throwing stones.

When he joined the communist party he went their primarily for two issues. One was to gain race equality and the other was for unions or championing the rights and lot of the working man. To me, both of these are noble causes. He was trying to help  others have a better life and felt that  communism was the venue that most sided with him to do this. He was not coming off the assembly line trying to help himself because he had no education and could not get above the laborer working class. He was not part of communism for many of the other negative things we now know about them.

I would be proud to have kids that took the responsibility that Seeger lived with. He followed his conscience and tried to help others. I don't think he took the easy way out from his conscience.  IMO when he realized he messed up he came forward and said so. I think both of our takes on Seeger are clouded by where we think his heart is/was. And that we will probably continue to differ on this as Mr Seeger will have no future activities for us to further evaluate him on.

Ken

Edited by - From Greylock to Bean Blossom on 02/05/2014 13:07:07