KingStudent - Posted - 11/04/2014:  07:03:27

If we look at Frank Converse's Analytical Banjo Method (and some other early method books) we find that they are written for A tuning, i.e., EAEG#B, which is a minor 3rd lower than GCGBD tuning (plectrum, or bluegrass drop-C).  The latter was one of Pete Seeger's favorite tunings.  So if we take a long-neck ("Seeger") banjo and tune it to what seems to me to be a natural tuning -- namely EAEG#B (which is just GCGBD adapted to the longer neck with its extra 3 frets), we can read the Analytical Banjo Method directly, note-for-note, in "concert" key.  That is, ABM becomes an ideal method book for the long-neck!  I just discovered this, although if it's anything like my other discoveries, it's already obvious to everyone else.

coalandice - Posted - 11/04/2014:  09:01:15

Thanks for sharing none-the-less
It's new to me and somewhat happenstansically
exactly the question I was ruminating/pondering
recently

trapdoor2 - Posted - 11/04/2014:  09:40:50

Until about 1907, the eAEG#B tuning scheme was the publishing "standard" for the banjo in North America. By the mid-to-late 1880's, the gCGBD tuning was a generally accepted norm...but banjoists were being taught to transpose. That is, they read eAEG#B but the actual tuning was gCGBD.

I cannot recall if Converse mentions this in the ABM or not. Joel Hooks would know offhand. BTW, the ABM has lots of great tunes in it.

The Brits started tuning and publishing in the "C" notation right from the start.

Rob MacKillop - Posted - 11/04/2014:  12:52:21

I'm looking at Converse's book right now. He gives a few paragraphs under the heading, "Concerning the key of A, and the pitch", and says that, "with the banjo, the question of pitch is arbitrary, and may be modified by circumstance, as, for instance, when playing with other instruments, or again when accompanying the voice" (page 4).

However, on page 15, under the heading, "The tuning of the banjo", he says, "The 4th string is tuned to the tone produced by an A tuning fork, pitch pipe or piano". This is unequivocal. However, in a footnote on the same page he says, "...should the 4th string be tuned to C, the 3rd string would be tuned to G, the 2nd string to B, the 1st string to D, an the 5th string to g."

As regards the original post by KingStudent, I'd be happy to hear you play Converse's music on a long-neck Seeger banjo, and why not? I'm sure it would sound great. But you should do it for that reason alone, and not because of the pitch.

Interesting discussion!

KingStudent - Posted - 11/04/2014:  15:49:24

quote:

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Originally posted by Rob MacKillop

As regards the original post by KingStudent, I'd be happy to hear you play Converse's music on a long-neck Seeger banjo, and why not? I'm sure it would sound great. But you should do it for that reason alone, and not because of the pitch.

---

I fear that my motives are not quite as pure as Rob might wish   Recently I got all obsessed with the long-neck and started playing it as best I could.  But I found it hard to navigate the "low" frets visually, because -- of course! -- the neck is extended downward and I've never dealt with that territory before.  (Plus, I was working on a Harmony, which has the 5th peg between the 6th & 7th frets of all things, instead of between the 7th & 8th which is standard now, and is how it is on the Deering I just got.  What were they thinking?  I guess it just wasn't settled in the early days.)  Anyway I hadn't really studied ABM but then I remembered the A tuning, and sure enough ABM is perfect for learning to negotiate the low frets on the long-neck, and to sight-read, etc.  I will definitely make some recordings once I get a few of the Converse tunes into shape -- thanks for the suggestion!

stanger - Posted - 11/05/2014:  04:00:32

The tuning Converse used may have been due to the pitch standard of that time.
For ages, there was no standardized pitch; the most difficult instrument used in any ensemble set the pitch for the group.
Organs were the most difficult of all instruments to change pitch, as any change required serious and costly tweaking of all the pipes. Bach's most played organs in Liepzig , Hamburg and Weimar were all pitched at 480, while an English pitch pipe made in the same era was pitched at 380.
Another serious problem with standardizing pitch was the vocal limitations of singers, who preferred lower pitches, as there was less strain on the voice hitting the high notes.

Pitch could vary between a city's organs as much as 5 half-tones. This was a common problem all over Europe. France eventually standardized the pitch to A435.
That helped the singers, but orchestras sounded deeper than today. They lacked the power and brilliance of today's standard. Upward creep began in the 1800's and continued into the 20th century.

Very gradually, the 'standard' crept up toward A-440, but A-440 didn't become the world standard until 1939. A-440 was actually a lower standard than some countries at that time were using. Italy's standard was A-451.
One of the reasons why A-440 became the world standard was it was an easier pitch to set on laboratory instruments than the most widely used pitch just previous, A-439. 439 is a prime number.

In Converse's day, all the banjos were tuned lower. Gut strings of the time would often snap when tuned around A-440, as did some piano strings. With the advent of the plated Swedish steel musical string wire, pianos could be tuned to A-440, given them more power and brilliance, and the rest of the instruments in an orchestra all tended to have increases of these qualities as well. Since the human ear distinguishes higher pitches easier than low ones, and the acoustic volume of any instrument was all the loudness that could be had before electronic amplification, both qualities were very important.

A-440 drastically changed the construction of the banjo.Steel strings accommodated the high A-440 well, but the added tension warped banjo necks and even caused some rims to warp, and the stiffness of the steel strings caused a lot of players permanent injury in their right hand fingertips (all banjos were played fingerstyle, with bare fingers). As a result, all banjo design turned toward 2 things- increased brilliance and volume, and more ease of playing.

The ultimate solutions are still with us. The spun fabricated brass and cast bronze tone rings, like the Vega Tubaphone and the Gibson Mastertone, provided the sound demands, and much shorter scale lengths- from 25 1/2 to 27 inches, allowed much more hand comfort. Doing away with the old heels and the ways the heels were connected to the rim also played a vital part in comfort- the modern heel and connection solutions drastically lowered the action on all banjos, which in turn made frets more popular, as now a banjoist could actually play all the high notes that were to be found on the fingerboard. Earlier, hitting the high D note on the first string- found on the 7th fret- was something only a real expert player could do.

regards,
stanger

Joel Hooks - Posted - 11/05/2014:  12:57:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by stanger

The tuning Converse used may have been due to the pitch standard of that time.

For ages, there was no standardized pitch; the most difficult instrument used in any ensemble set the pitch for the group.

Organs were the most difficult of all instruments to change pitch, as any change required serious and costly tweaking of all the pipes. Bach's most played organs in Liepzig , Hamburg and Weimar were all pitched at 480, while an English pitch pipe made in the same era was pitched at 380.

Another serious problem with standardizing pitch was the vocal limitations of singers, who preferred lower pitches, as there was less strain on the voice hitting the high notes.



Pitch could vary between a city's organs as much as 5 half-tones. This was a common problem all over Europe. France eventually standardized the pitch to A435.

That helped the singers, but orchestras sounded deeper than today. They lacked the power and brilliance of today's standard. Upward creep began in the 1800's and continued into the 20th century.



Very gradually, the 'standard' crept up toward A-440, but A-440 didn't become the world standard until 1939. A-440 was actually a lower standard than some countries at that time were using. Italy's standard was A-451.

One of the reasons why A-440 became the world standard was it was an easier pitch to set on laboratory instruments than the most widely used pitch just previous, A-439. 439 is a prime number.



In Converse's day, all the banjos were tuned lower. Gut strings of the time would often snap when tuned around A-440, as did some piano strings. With the advent of the plated Swedish steel musical string wire, pianos could be tuned to A-440, given them more power and brilliance, and the rest of the instruments in an orchestra all tended to have increases of these qualities as well. Since the human ear distinguishes higher pitches easier than low ones, and the acoustic volume of any instrument was all the loudness that could be had before electronic amplification, both qualities were very important.



A-440 drastically changed the construction of the banjo.Steel strings accommodated the high A-440 well, but the added tension warped banjo necks and even caused some rims to warp, and the stiffness of the steel strings caused a lot of players permanent injury in their right hand fingertips (all banjos were played fingerstyle, with bare fingers). As a result, all banjo design turned toward 2 things- increased brilliance and volume, and more ease of playing.



The ultimate solutions are still with us. The spun fabricated brass and cast bronze tone rings, like the Vega Tubaphone and the Gibson Mastertone, provided the sound demands, and much shorter scale lengths- from 25 1/2 to 27 inches, allowed much more hand comfort. Doing away with the old heels and the ways the heels were connected to the rim also played a vital part in comfort- the modern heel and connection solutions drastically lowered the action on all banjos, which in turn made frets more popular, as now a banjoist could actually play all the high notes that were to be found on the fingerboard. Earlier, hitting the high D note on the first string- found on the 7th fret- was something only a real expert player could do.



regards,

stanger

---

Hmm, this is the first I've heard about the pitch/wire string connection.  Also interesting information on banjo construction-- new to me.

By early 1880s (fully 30+ years before common wire use for the regulation banjo) pitch went up to B flat "to play with orchestra" (brass).  Shortly after that it went up again to C and even a step higher to D sometimes.  But let's rewind.

"Pitch" in this case means the bass or fourth string with intervals following "standard" tuning.  I try not to use the term "tuning" when discussing "A" and "C" notation as it confuses the modern banjoist with all the scordautra now in use.  We are also discussing "common trends" in popular banjo music so exceptions apply and prove the rule.

The "Standard of Pitch" is a different discussion entirely.

By mid 1880 (1884 ish) "banjo in C" shows up regularly in print.  British publications were then being printed in C notation.

The general rule was that "the size of the banjo dictates the pitch," larger banjo= lower pitch, that is until the 80s. 

The overwhelming documentation (including very early recordings) support this 100% 

Notable exceptions include George Lansing's note to continue to play in "A" despite most banjoists tuning higher. Also a common "pitch to the voice" statement was given.

As the banjo was becoming an ensemble instrument with piano accompaniments abound and folks just kept it in "C."

Strings did play a part, but not wire.  Better manufacturing methods came about in the 80 and 90s for "truing" strings. A market demand for Banjo specific strings also did away with re-purposed violin or guitar strings. Better (or "truer") gut strings and lead to the reemergence of the three octave neck (that went away with frets and false strings).

 As to A notation-- that was good old fashioned American stubbornness.  A lot of it was because SSS was the first major publisher of affordable sheet music for banjo.  Having started with E. M. Hall's "Home Sweet Home with Variations" (no. 1 in his catalog) in 1879 and thereafter releasing a constant stream of approachable music for the masses; the standards were set for notation.  Other publishers followed to hit a market SSS found for them.

Wire strings came in because of WW1.  The countries that made gut strings set to killing one another.  It has also been pointed out to me that sutures would have been in higher demand than banjo strings.  Add to that a change in music fashion, a dance craze that swept the country after the war and in Fred Van Eps' words "playing the banjo with a tool"  the regulation banjo took a backseat (but did not vanish despite what we've been told in books like Scruggs'). 

AFA Long neck banjos-- it is your's, whatever works.  I've made the pitch connection in my brain before but never perused it as I find long necks unwieldy and difficult to play despite my 5' 11" size.

Warning: the previous was written from memory, please check my facts and contrubute!