TOMCAT - Posted - 12/04/2015:  11:59:29

First Archie I ever had. What's the general rule on tailpiece podition as far as height from the head?

wuzapicker - Posted - 12/04/2015:  12:25:43

I'd say you need only enough down pressure to hold the bridge in place. Too much will strain the sound.  But with any banjo, the best setup is a subjective matter.



Michael

Edited by - wuzapicker on 12/04/2015 12:26:55

TOMCAT - Posted - 12/04/2015:  12:28:10

Thanks that kinda what I figured.

TOMCAT - Posted - 12/04/2015:  12:37:19

Question 2. What crown hieght head? This one is either wrong height or just stretched to the max because the tension hoop is bottomed out on the neck

gottasmilealot - Posted - 12/04/2015:  12:49:54

Usually a low crown head for an archtop, but a medium crown head will usually work.  A high crown will usually pull down too far.

gottasmilealot - Posted - 12/04/2015:  12:55:58

With regard to tailpiece down pressure, it will vary depending on your head tension, but I start with little pressure as described above, and then increase it to get the percussive pop I prefer; but, go too far, and you'll restrict the head vibrations, and therefore the volume and bass.  Experiment, but let adjustments settle in.  It will take some time.  Enjoy your archtop!

TOMCAT - Posted - 12/04/2015:  13:14:10

Thanks! I pick up a new head. This one is a RK 85 ser#19 one of the early ones. Really impressed with tone and pop

stanleytone - Posted - 12/04/2015:  14:21:49

That depends on if you want to sound like Ralph Stanley. He does not use a thick bridge, he uses a smooth white head,very tight , the tailpiece goes down pretty far towards the head. Everything is done to give it a more bright, cutting sound.

Blackjaxe47 - Posted - 12/04/2015:  14:45:09

That is exactly how I set-up my arch top. I went 90.5 on the drum dial for the head and use a Kershner Tailpiece about 3/16 from the head, Tim Purcell 5/8" Crowe Spacing for the bridge and it is much thicker than a normal bridge. To my ears it sounds absolutely great and have had many others comment on how good it sounds. My string action is also a bit higher 3/16" at the 22nd fret and get excellent tone up the neck.

steve davis - Posted - 12/05/2015:  05:26:22

My favorite archtop set up includes a head tuned to C and a 2.25 gram maple/ebony bridge.

I don't like an overly tight sound in my archtop.

A quarter deflection at the bridge under a ruler that touches the top of the tonering creates a C head note.

TP just below level.

Edited by - steve davis on 12/05/2015 05:29:46

stanleytone - Posted - 12/05/2015:  05:52:56

now i own a stanleytone and it came pretty much set up like i described. but i did put a snuffy on it and i thought it gave it more bottom  but still cuts like a knife. havent changed that bridge since i put it on almost twenty years ago.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 12/05/2015:  06:26:01

I have a '27 AT Granada with a clamshell tailpiece.The bottom of the TP is 1/ 8" from where the head breaks over the "arch" of the tone ring.

I used to go for the really "plinky" sound and used a really tight 5-star frosted head and a minimal bridge that probably weighed less than 2 grams.

Nowadays, I like a little more expressiveness, so I am using an Elite amber head at 89 on the drum dial and a spalted maple bridge that weighs 2.5 grams.  I also have a small piece of natural sponge between the top rod and the tailpiece under the head, and felt under the cap of the clamshell TP.  This setup works for me.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 12/05/2015:  15:21:38

I have to add, that the last time I corrected the head tension with the drum dial, the sound of that old Granada was ear-splitting -paint-peeling, and I don't even pick down at the bridge like Ralph. They are not the same as flatheads.

Their biggest weakness, compared to flatheads, because of the 9.5" diameter vibrating head surface is the bass notes, so I would recommend the GHS PF-150 strings with the phosphor bronze 4th string, which is growly, but dies young -you have to replace it more frequently than the unwound strings.  Small price to pay.  I buy the 22 ga phosphor bronze ones in bulk. Change them when they lose the growl.  Also, Gibson knew what they were doing, and the BBs were archtops, too. The scale really ought to be 26 3/8".

O.D. - Posted - 12/06/2015:  03:33:21

I put a Remo suede head on my 27 style 4 no hole raised head. Like Ken, I like the phosphor bronze strings too.

 I really like the tone this combo produces.I get a full ,livelier tone.

 Im using a Fitch bridge and a Presto thats about 5/16 above the head and parallel .

 Best set up so far for this banjo.

 Good luck

 Everett

Bart Veerman - Posted - 12/06/2015:  11:18:49

Most tail pieces are adjustable so tension it according to what your ears tell you, had tension about 91~92 if you have access to a Drum Dial. Try the tail piece height somewhere from 1/8" ~ 1/4"

Usually a low or medium crown head (Framus uses medium, NOT low crown).

Yup, ditto on the phosfor bronze 4th string.

I prefer a light weight bridge and a smooth white head but many like the frosted white heads when they want to lessen the archtop "bite" a bit.

 

Ken: sounds like you got yours setup to sound like a flat top

Edited by - Bart Veerman on 12/06/2015 11:19:28

arnie fleischer - Posted - 12/06/2015:  11:58:34

Earlier this year I revamped the set-up on my 1928 Gibson style 4 archtop.  I replaced the 5-Star head that had been on it for many, many years with an American Made Banjo head that I tightened by sound and feel and then checked with a drum dial (91), replaced the very old 5/8" Snuffy Smith bridge with a newer but still old 5/8" Factory Floor Bridge from First Quality (after trying eight or nine other bridges from my stash, including two other Factory Floor bridges - I have no idea what any of them weighs), changed my strings from D'Addario J- 60+ (9.5-11-13-20 (nickel-wound)-9.5, my standard set for my flatheads) to Curt Mangan #90733 (10-11-13-20 (stainless steel-wound)-10.  I can't use any kind of bronze-wrapped fourth strings, because for me they lose their tone in days, not weeks, probably due to my body chemistry.  I kept the Presto tailpiece (a heavy, 35-year-old, American-made replica) at 1/4" above the head.  I also increased the neck relief ever so slightly and reduced the action to 7/64" at 12 and 9/64" at 22 (standard Gibson factory action).  The banjo barks and growls with great power and clarity, but also has a lot of warmth.  It sounds surprisingly close to an old flathead.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 12/06/2015:  14:01:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bart Veerman

 

Most tail pieces are adjustable so tension it according to what your ears tell you, had tension about 91~92 if you have access to a Drum Dial. Try the tail piece height somewhere from 1/8" ~ 1/4"

Usually a low or medium crown head (Framus uses medium, NOT low crown).

Yup, ditto on the phosfor bronze 4th string.

I prefer a light weight bridge and a smooth white head but many like the frosted white heads when they want to lessen the archtop "bite" a bit.

 

Ken: sounds like you got yours setup to sound like a flat top

---

Yes,

It sounds like a Tubaphone

Dan Drabek - Posted - 12/06/2015:  15:43:48

I grew up playing archtops in the 60's and idolizing Doug Dillard--and I still love the sound of a turbo-charged arch top banjo. They have a certain snap and quick decay that provides for great separation. If I want to play really fast--I can do it best on an arch top. 

I've since come to prefer a warmer tone. Not just for the increased bass response, but also for a more singing tone on treble notes way up the neck. But it's a matter of preference--like the difference between a violin and viola. Both have their charms. 

Back when I played arch top, I used a very tight, frosted head with the frosting removed. Remo currently sells a head called "cloudy" which is similar to what I ended up with under the frosting. ( much nicer looking than the current clear heads IMHO)  I cranked my tailpieces down as close to the head as I could get them without touching, and I filed my bridges to a knife point and as thin as possible without having them explode. The sound wasn't as rich as my current flatheads, but the cutting power was fantastic. And the lightning quick response made them easy to play at nosebleed speeds. Banjo pickers were like gunslingers in those days, and were partly judged on how fast they could play. But times have changed in both musical styling and in the instruments best suited for the style.

DD

wuzapicker - Posted - 12/06/2015:  16:17:46

Mine was a 1920's Epiphone Recording model with the raised head system over which Wm. L. Lange sued Epiphone. But that banjo held it's its own quite well compared to the 1960's model Gibson Bowie 4-hole archtops others were playing in the early 1970s. I cranked the head down really tight and a thinned down a Grover bridge. That was before so many boutique bridge builders were known. My tailpiece was a 1960's Waverly cranked down to 3/16" above the head. Under that setup, my Banjo would snarl very much like Eddie Adcock's old Epiphone Conversion which was fine to me.



And yes, a 40-hole Mastertone can indeed be setup to peel the proverial paint. I have always admired the sound of those old Mastertone 40-hole pots. In my opine most of them don't gain much being cut for a modern flathead tonering. I suppose sometimes it works but not often enough that I would expect a superior result.



Michael

Edited by - wuzapicker on 12/06/2015 16:18:54

TOMCAT - Posted - 12/06/2015:  19:54:48

Thanks! Lots of good info.I'll be picking up a head tomorrow. Have pretty much decided on the five star for the pop, but who knows what I'll come home with.ha

Dustyman - Posted - 12/07/2015:  16:21:02

Guggenheim Baked Maple Block rim,28 Gibson no hole tone ring,exellent archtop tone ,my tailpiece is just above the head ,as low as I can get it . I raised it to try the difference and it KILLED the tone...there ya go!

TOMCAT - Posted - 12/08/2015:  05:54:58

I noticed in a pic of Ralph Stanley picking, the camera was at an angle where you could see the tailpiece and it looked like it was almost touching the head it was so low

arnie fleischer - Posted - 12/08/2015:  08:29:36

Back in the '70s that was a very popular set-up, and not just for archtops: tighten your head, crank down your tailpiece, and thin down your bridge.  

steve davis - Posted - 12/08/2015:  13:29:47

I like a "not too tight" head on my archtops.Nice to get that bit of low end.

Banjophobic - Posted - 12/08/2015:  14:10:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

 

My favorite archtop set up includes a head tuned to C and a 2.25 gram maple/ebony bridge.

I don't like an overly tight sound in my archtop.

A quarter deflection at the bridge under a ruler that touches the top of the tonering creates a C head note.

TP just below level.

---

A tapped "c" note on an archtop head is a"Bb" on a flathead,just for anyone's reference. This means they are the tensions, just that the raised head smaller surface area registers a higher pitch. That's a very tight head Steve, when talking about tensions in general. Most flatheads are in the G-A range ( G#-Bb for Archie's). I just mention that since you said you didn't like a really tight head. 

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 12/08/2015:  16:06:54

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

 

I like a "not too tight" head on my archtops.Nice to get that bit of low end.

---

You rarely mention archtops.  How many do you have, and what are they?

banjotrader - Posted - 12/11/2015:  06:42:29

The statement mentioned above regarding why Lange sued Epiphone is not correct.  Lange sued Epiphone over the use of their Flange system patent.

  

"Lange Brings Suit on Banjo Resonator Patent

Papers have been served in the action brought

by William L. Lange, manufacturer of Paramount

banjos at 225 East Twenty-fourth street,

New York, against the Epiphone Banjo Corp.,

New York, and Harry Myers, its secretary and

treasurer, as co-defendants for an alleged infringement

on U. S. patent No. 1,550,826, issued to Mr.

Lange in August, 1925. The patent pertains to a

banjo in which a resonator of greater diameter

than the rim of the instrument is employed, the

resonator being spaced from the rim by means

of a spacing member provided with sound openings.

Alleged infringements by certain other

parties will be disposed of by licensing agreements,

or suits will be considered if such negotiations

fail, according to a statement issued by

Mr. Lange."

"Patent Infringement Suit Is Settled

The patent infringement suit brought by William

L. Lange against the Epiphone Banjo

Corp. and Harry F. Meyers has been settled. A

consent decree and injunction order were entered

against the defendants and a license was

granted to the Epiphone Banjo Corp. to continue

to manufacture banjos, on a royalty basis,

embodying the particular features of the William

L. Lange patents that were claimed to

have been infringed. This settlement terminates

the pending suits which were to have been tried

in the Federal Courts May 14, 1929"

steve davis - Posted - 12/11/2015:  07:31:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

 

 

quote:

 

---

Originally posted by steve davis

 

My favorite archtop set up includes a head tuned to C and a 2.25 gram maple/ebony bridge.

I don't like an overly tight sound in my archtop.

A quarter deflection at the bridge under a ruler that touches the top of the tonering creates a C head note.

TP just below level.

---

A tapped "c" note on an archtop head is a"Bb" on a flathead,just for anyone's reference. This means they are the tensions, just that the raised head smaller surface area registers a higher pitch. That's a very tight head Steve, when talking about tensions in general. Most flatheads are in the G-A range ( G#-Bb for Archie's). I just mention that since you said you didn't like a really tight head. 

 

 

---

An archtop head with a quarter under a straight edge that touches the tonering on both ends yields a C tapped note.

This is the same bridge deflection as a flathead tuned to G#.

You are wrong John.This isn't a tight archtop head..This is that kind of not too tight tone you can hear in the 90s Reno Bro Show with Robbie picking his father's archtop.

Nice growl for an archie.

A Bb or C head on a flathead would indeed be a tight head.

steve davis - Posted - 12/11/2015:  07:38:25

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rawhide Creek

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

 

I like a "not too tight" head on my archtops.Nice to get that bit of low end.

---

You rarely mention archtops.  How many do you have, and what are they?

---

I have owned 4 archtops,Russ.All Gold Stars.I've spoken of them quite a bit in the past.

My first one was bought at Buck Dancer's Choice when they were on Commercial Street.

It was a new '76 GF 85 mahogany wreath.

One of the best playing necks I've ever held.The last one was purchased (along with a pristine '79 GF 85 flathead) from HA Auctions in '11.

Banjophobic - Posted - 12/11/2015:  10:02:55

A real C tapped note is a very, very tight head Steve. That note on an archtop head equates to a B tension on a flathead, which is very tight head indeed. Now if you are talking a low octave tension, as in a low C, then that is extremely loose. I think you might need to review the tensions of tapped notes. 😉

I was incorrect earlier when I said "Bb" on an arch top is the same as C. It is a I stated above. Most banjos fall in the range of G-A tensions for a flathead, which is G#-Bb. Going up to C is very tight...on eithe style of tonering.

 Of course if it sounds great there that's all that matters , but I'm trying to qualify those tapped notes and tensions.

Edited by - Banjophobic on 12/11/2015 10:05:36

steve davis - Posted - 12/11/2015:  10:54:24

A C note on an archtop is not a tight head,John.

A C note on a flathead is.The C note I hear is very real.

You're hearing something else from what I'm hearing.

A quarter deflection at the bridge isn't a tight archtop or flathead.

Good tones there.

Edited by - steve davis on 12/11/2015 10:56:56

Banjophobic - Posted - 12/11/2015:  11:01:30

That's cool Steve. Your idea of a C note and mine are evidently very different. How about a B nite..is that tight on a flathead? You know that an archtop note is only 1/2 step below what you hear on a flathead, right? It's the same tension , just the different surface areas registering a different pitch of the tap.

Edited by - Banjophobic on 12/11/2015 11:03:04

steve davis - Posted - 12/11/2015:  11:05:03

Archtop at the same tension as a G# flathead is C.
What about a B note?

Banjophobic - Posted - 12/11/2015:  13:14:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

 

Archtop at the same tension as a G# flathead is C.

What about a B note?

---

Umm, no, in the same octave range, you would start, for example, with an E note (really low tension), then as you increase tension the tap note follows chromatically..F,F#,G,G#,A,A#,B...C. So C as a tap head tension reference, in the same octave, would be much tighter.

If you get an archtop banjo head and a flathead banjo at the same tension, the archtop will register a half step high,  even though both heads are tuned the SAME. The smaller surface area of the arch top make this happen. 

steve davis - Posted - 12/11/2015:  15:19:40

I can only tell you what I hear.It's the test for all my ideas.

A C head is changed to a B head by loosening each hook nut 1/4 turn.Slightly less than 1/4 turn on an archtop.

Halfsteps of head note are generally 1/4 turns.

We only run a limited scale of useful head tap notes,John.

Flatheads are in the G to Bb range with exceptions like Bela's F head.

In the working ranges 1/4 turn does the job.

Edited by - steve davis on 12/11/2015 15:21:39

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 12/11/2015:  17:54:49

HHMMMMnnn? Didn't know that note values change from an archtop vs flathead... I would think that a "note" on one would be the "same" on the other, If a person was really hearing a note..



If you want to call it that, in a final setup a quarter turn can encompass the whole scale.. Its far too much. An eighth increment can/will make a tremendous difference..

A quarter turn can jump the banjo from one sound plateau/window to a different one..

Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 12/11/2015 17:57:03

steve davis - Posted - 12/13/2015:  06:20:22

A G# on a flathead is a quarter bridge deflection. A C note on an archtop is also a quarter's bridge deflection.

A quarter's deflection in a 9 1/2 head is relatively looser than a quarter deflection in a flathead by a few percent and you may like to add 1/4 turn on each nut for a C# head.



My head tension gauge is a bit more precise.

How can a 1/4 turn on the hooks encompass a whole scale,Ken.A 1/4 turn obviously raises or lowers the head note a half step if you can hear the note.



What is a "sound plateau/window"?

Every change makes a difference.

 

Edited by - steve davis on 12/13/2015 06:20:51

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 12/13/2015:  07:17:50

That's the terms we/the old real Gurus used when they were here..(before they got tired of ........and left).. It predates you by quite a bit Steve.. There were some really indepth discussions then if they were archived... Went much deeper, than the toe in the water of today and parroting..

steve davis - Posted - 12/13/2015:  07:18:20

It's immaterial to me whether you can hear the tapped note or not,Ken but that doesn't give you the liberty to make up your own values.

I have proven everything I say from what I know I hear.I'm not one one to kid myself or make empty claims.I'm a realist who knows what I talk about.

Edited by - steve davis on 12/13/2015 07:21:29

Banjophobic - Posted - 12/14/2015:  09:29:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

 

A G# on a flathead is a quarter bridge deflection. A C note on an archtop is also a quarter's bridge deflection.

A quarter's deflection in a 9 1/2 head is relatively looser than a quarter deflection in a flathead by a few percent and you may like to add 1/4 turn on each nut for a C# head.

 

 

---

I dont understand how a G# note head tension and a C can be the same with your quater/stick method. As I said before, which is true in tap tuning, that a flathead and arrchtop banjo, with the same head tension will regist a difference of only 1/2 step. The archtop will tap 1/2 step higher note, at the same tension.  So for example, a G# note on a flathead banjo will register as an  A note, at the same exact tensions. 

A difference between G# and C is Two whole steps in tension, or in plain terms 4 sets of tensions higher in tension. 

steve davis - Posted - 12/14/2015:  09:30:39

I don't know why to most things,John.I am however rock solid on what I hear.

I'm reminded of one of Gramp's sayings which goes..."Don't matter why...just is."

Edited by - steve davis on 12/14/2015 09:38:41

Banjophobic - Posted - 12/14/2015:  10:10:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

 

I don't know why to most things,John.I am however rock solid on what I hear.

I'm reminded of one of Gramp's sayings which goes..."Don't matter why...just is."

---

Ok Steve, thats cool. Im just trying to clarify for anyone who does want to understand tap tuning 'why'. A "C" tension is very tight for any kind of banjo, thats all. 

Banjophobic - Posted - 12/14/2015:  10:35:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

 

I don't know why to most things,John.I am however rock solid on what I hear.

I'm reminded of one of Gramp's sayings which goes..."Don't matter why...just is."

---

Ok Steve, thats cool. Im just trying to clarify for anyone who does want to understand tap tuning 'why'. A "C" tension is very tight for any kind of banjo, thats all. 

---

And Ill add that putting any banjo at "C" head tension risks some damage to the head (bursting) or some of the metal components failing/warping.

Stormy Mon - Posted - 12/14/2015:  11:29:20

been playing an arch-top mostly about every night since 71.I tune mine around b flat to b.It is in the 90 range on the drum dial.My flat head at about the same drum dial,is in the g sharp range.I have seen siminoff call these out as the 5ths instead,in other words he would say it was an f instead of a b flat.Both notes are related to the head note imo.
I find having 2 nice banjos helps let you know when one "ain't gittin it""

Banjophobic - Posted - 12/14/2015:  11:56:16

The problem may be what I call a "c" two head tension and what Steve is calling that tension. most players who use a tap tone for reference understand that the  range of tensions in the "standard" tuning (octave) range for banjo in "G tuning" falls between "F (really loose) to B (really tight). Anything below F is extremely loose and above B is extremely tight. 

Of course anyone can choose a different name for any tap note and if it works for that particular line of reining, it's fine. The confusion comes when you start talking about tensions in your own system and it doesn't geehaw with the accepted "standard" terminology.  

If we are talking C a it is generally recognized, that is extremely tight as most folks who use taps for reference notes understand. 

mijknahs - Posted - 12/14/2015:  14:19:25

I know that my flathead (AMB Remo head) changes a 1/2 step (tap tuned note) every sixth of a turn. I just look at one of the flat sides on the hex nut and turn it until the next flat side is in the same position as the last. This raises the pitch about a 1/2 step (i.e. from A to Bb, etc.)

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 12/14/2015:  15:35:42

Sounds about rite... I would say that the amount of tension, pursuant to the existing state of tightness increases per distance of the threads turned, (Archemedes?).. (X squared, type deal)... Other words, the tighter a head is it takes less of a turn to achieve the same amount of pressure increase ..

(When I was actively building, best I remember I built about 7or 8 archtops from scratch.. mostly Stewmac/first quality parts..  the last three Deluxified, But none of those were any problem to settup,  When you hit the "sweet spot" you knew!!)  All sold before completion and the last two made the Festival circuit all over, Wish I knew where they are now...)

Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 12/14/2015 15:42:07

steve davis - Posted - 12/15/2015:  06:36:55

I pay attention to the final results and keep a kind of running log on how I got there.
Makes future adjustments much more precise and repeatable.
Pay attention to physical results.
Your ears are your best tool in the box.Exercise them.

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 12/21/2015:  19:37:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rawhide Creek

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

 

I like a "not too tight" head on my archtops.Nice to get that bit of low end.

---

You rarely mention archtops.  How many do you have, and what are they?

---

I have owned 4 archtops,Russ.All Gold Stars.I've spoken of them quite a bit in the past.

My first one was bought at Buck Dancer's Choice when they were on Commercial Street.

It was a new '76 GF 85 mahogany wreath.

One of the best playing necks I've ever held.The last one was purchased (along with a pristine '79 GF 85 flathead) from HA Auctions in '11. 

---

You missed my question.  I said how many do you have (not how many have you had) and what are they?