Uncle Freddy - Posted - 10/29/2016:  15:54:39

Has anybody had experience in trying to waterproof skin heads, in particular on non-adjustable head types, like tack-head banjos?  I'm in the midst of a couple of experiments right now, treating goatskin with various things; I got to thinking somebody must have done this before and have some thoughts to share.

I really love the sound of skin as opposed to plastic, and I love the sound, weight and feel of the tack-head or glued-on head without all the metal hardware.  I don't mind, myself, having to warm up a head by the stove or with a hair-dryer on a wet/cold day, but I understand it is probably a deterrent to a lot of possible clients.  I'm just entering into this exploration of banjo-making again, after a 40-year break where I built wooden-topped instruments of different types.  I love the skin thing, and am trying to figure out the best way to deal with it.  I'd love to get a tack-head type banjo that wasn't quite as susceptible to the climate changes.

I'm very sensitive to a lot of materials; I can't really use most finishes, epoxies and so on.  I'm trying good ol' Titebond (version 3, waterproof) and also a strange and wonderful, water-resistant coating/dye material made from fermented astringent persimmon juice (really!!).  This latter, called "kakishibu", is an ancient Japanese weatherproofing treatment for wood, though now mostly used as a natural dye for fabrics.  It has the definite liability of taking 5-years to make, and you do need astringent persimmons!  

Anyway, I'd love to know what anyone else has tried, and I'll let you know how my experiments turn out.

Fred 

rudy - Posted - 10/29/2016:  17:26:33

Brooks Masten, who has installed a LOT of goat skin heads has stated on his website blog that he thinks it does little good to use waterproofing on a banjo head.  You're probably better off to use the strategy that Eric Prust has used, install the head correctly and ship with more than one bridge so the player can choose which to use depending on the relative humidity level.

Eric has sold a ton of tack heads, so I'd pay attention.  Eric makes really reasonably priced tack heads (starting at $200)  that get good press around here.

chloesgarden.com/Banjos%20on%2...odels.htm

ClayTech - Posted - 10/29/2016:  17:32:44

With all due respect to Brooks Masten, who obviously knows way, way more about banjos than I ever will- if the problem with skin heads is that they absorb moisture, then how would waterproofing not help?

Meles_Meles - Posted - 10/29/2016:  20:32:11

Doesn't water make leather shrink?

BDCA - Posted - 10/29/2016:  20:34:27

As a leather maker, I know that waterproofing really means water (NOT water vapor) repellent. A coating may slow humidity absorption, but based on the thickness of the skin, I believe it's futile, unless you need to play in the rain and don't want the head to collapse..

Bob

rudy - Posted - 10/30/2016:  03:34:29

quote:

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Originally posted by ClayTech

With all due respect to Brooks Masten, who obviously knows way, way more about banjos than I ever will- if the problem with skin heads is that they absorb moisture, then how would waterproofing not help?

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Bob's response above says it all.

It's not the quick splash of water that effects a banjo head, but the slower day to day exchange that isn't going to be restricted by "waterproofing"  The only way to really waterproof a head is to make it out of something that isn't hygroscopic; mylar.

hughstrawn - Posted - 10/30/2016:  03:55:06

I've used Terry Bell's suggested method of waterproofing a tackhead--hairspray--and it works like a charm here in the central Texas humidity. Can't find the written info from Terry but if my mind serves me (and you are on your own here), a couple light coats of spray (inexpensive non-scented) on the mounted head, rubbed in well with fingers and allowed to dry. Maybe Terry will chime in here with the 'real story'.

hugh

​UPDATE: Here is Terry's suggestion from his tackhead instructions:

INSTALLING THE SKIN

1) Soak you skin in the tub for 20 minutes. While you're waiting, put white or yellow glue all along the top edge and down the side about 3/4". Protect the outside of your rim from glue drips by wrapping it with blue painters tape which is not as sticky as masking tape. Tape up to the 3/4" area where you skin will be tacked and glued. Pull the skin out of the tub and have a towel handy to catch the excess water on the skin, pat the skin dry. 2) When you push the skin onto the side of the rim you should be able to see the little holes, marked with a black dot. Push the tacks in while pulling the skin VERY tight. With a very sharp utility knife, trim the excess skin off. Hammer the tacks over on the inside of the rim. Do it on a very solid surface such as a vise's anvil area. It takes about 5 to 7 hammer strikes to bend the tack completely down. To keep moisture on humid and rainy days from making your skin sink, get some Suave brand aerosol hair spray. Spray it all over the tight skin, front and back. Apply it twice, and rub it in with your fingers. This is the best treatment I know of and it works great. You should never notice a soggy skin unless you're standing in the rain and drenching your banjo! 

and no need for two bridges.....so far.

Edited by - hughstrawn on 10/30/2016 04:06:44

ClayTech - Posted - 10/30/2016:  10:57:11

quote:

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Originally posted by BDCA

 

As a leather maker, I know that waterproofing really means water (NOT water vapor) repellent. A coating may slow humidity absorption, but based on the thickness of the skin, I believe it's futile, unless you need to play in the rain and don't want the head to collapse..

 

Bob

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Ah, I see. Thank you for the explanation!

Uncle Freddy - Posted - 10/30/2016:  13:58:18

Thanks for all the replies, folks!

One thing I hadn't been thinking about was the difference between water and water vapor; the implication seems to be, and my experience is bearing this out, that the vapor...humidity in the air, in other words, is harder to keep the material from absorbing than water in liquid form. Still, I can't believe that it wouldn't be possible to slow the absorption enough to be useful. The hairspray idea is interesting (thanks for that tip!), but I have pretty serious chemical sensitivities, so I might have a hard time using it.

At this point, I don't see it as a big problem, but if I can find something that helps to slow the absorption without damaging the tone I'd think that a benefit.

I've tried acrylic paint, superglue (both of which make me sick so wouldn't be my first choices anyway, plus neither seems to work that well), and my current experiments with Titebond lll and "kakishibu". At this point I'm looking for something that will soak into the skin fibers and plasticize it to some degree, rather than just sitting on the outside surface. Titebond lll seems promising in my test, but also, as one might guess, changes the feel of the material to something more "plasticky". I'll have to try it on an actual instrument to see if it effects the tone that way as well.

Anyway, I'm just having fun with this; I'm perfectly open to learning that it is futile, and that having an extra bridge and a hair dryer is the way to go.

Fred

Tom Berghan - Posted - 10/30/2016:  15:31:09

Renaissance Wax helps: amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B003AJWN62/...ef=plSrch

Uncle Freddy - Posted - 10/30/2016:  19:29:39

Thanks, Tom!

I'd been thinking about wax; I read somewhere once, long ago, that a coating of parafin was the best thing for keeping moisture out of wood, better than varnish or lacquer.

Fred

ClayTech - Posted - 10/30/2016:  19:30:49

I treated mine with a water based liquid wax product I use in the pottery studio.

BDCA - Posted - 10/30/2016:  21:21:41

If you use a penetrating wax or plastic, you are simply filling and sealing the leather with wax or plastic and no longer have a true skin head. To see what the acutaul effect of "waterproofing" one would have to have two identical banjos, heads, etc., and then see what the effect on the tone would be vs. the absorption of water vapor...an impossibility.

The changes in tension is the price we pay for a mellow sound..totally worth it IMHO.

Bob

Tom Berghan - Posted - 10/31/2016:  08:04:49

Renaissance wax is very very soft and also used for cleaning. Museums around the world use it for wood, metal, porcelain, basically everything. It is not wax like bees wax or paraffin. 

Dan Drabek - Posted - 10/31/2016:  08:50:25

Yes, "waterproof" and "vapor proof" are two different things. GoreTex can resist water, but allows vapor to pass through. 

There are very few coatings that can resist water vapor. You can slow down the process with things like varnish, polyester resin, etc, but the vapor will eventually penetrate. 

The only two coatings that I'm familiar with that are impervious to water vapor are wax and epoxy resin. What effect they would have on the sound, I don't know. 

It's possible that silicone cement is waterproof, as it's used to glue aquarium glass together. But I don't know how you would get a thin enough coating on a skin head to avoid damaging the sound quality. 

Paste wax sounds the most promising and worth trying IMHO. 

DD

BDCA - Posted - 10/31/2016:  09:41:58

IF one were to melt and apply a thick layer of paraffin wax to BOTH sides of a head, that might impede water vapor absorption but the sound would definitely suck. Hot wax is applied to cotton jackets to produce water repellent breathable garments. But hey, if you think wax or other products work..go for it. I have been making goat skin Irish bodhrans since the 70s and I discovered the best thing for keeping the tension even..a wet sponge and a hair dryer (In Ireland, Guinness and a peat fire) 

Bob

Uncle Freddy - Posted - 10/31/2016:  13:37:22

I'm completely in love with the sound of a skin head, especially goatskin, so I agree with the caution advised here 100%. On the other hand, I don't know, myself, what all the factors are that make the skin sound so much more pleasing to me than plastic, and I really don't know how much I can mess with those unknown factors and retain the essential pleasing qualities of the material. I don't propose to dip the head in paraffin, as we do with the ends of guitar, violin etcetera tops/backs when first cutting them out from larger pieces, to slow down moisture loss from the end grain and avoid end-grain checking. A heavy coat of hard wax is not likely to please me, tone-wise.
But one of my favorite sounding banjos is one that I coated with acrylic artist paint, pretty heavily, on both sides of the skin. This treatment didn't seem to have a negative effect on tone (to my ears), and may slow down the absorption/release of moisture/water vapor, though not as significantly as I'd hoped. Since I'm sensitive to acrylics, I would like to find some other material, anyway. (I do love to paint, and consider the banjo head to be a fine potential canvas....that's another side to all this).

Intuitively, paste wax seems like a good possible choice. Unfortunately, what is generally put into wax to make it keep its paste-y quality in the can, is some kind of solvent...often multiple solvents. Most solvents are bad news for my chemical sensitivities...this is a problem I constantly run up against in my work. I do sometimes use a paste wax that is blended with nut oils to keep it soft, but I use this on wood; I'd be really leery of putting something oily on a banjo head. Another possible problem with wax in general is that it acts as a resist to glues, paints and other materials. If I want to paint or draw on a skin, I can always wax it afterwards, but one of the qualities I really appreciate about skin heads is that they are somewhat repairable; I've saved a number of old skin heads on banjos by patching a small hole or other wound before it turned into a serious split, using superglue and a scrap/bandage of very thin skin. Wax might make this impossible (then again, most of the treatments I'm considering could have this effect!).

I suppose there might be a possibility that a drying oil, like Tried and True Varnish Oil, which is just linseed oil and pine resin, would work, but here my intuition is that if I loaded the skin with enough of that to make a useful difference, it will effect the tone negatively.

Lots of things to try, in pursuit of something that a number of you are pretty convinced is futile or unnecessary! Oh well...I will either try some of these things, or not. At this point I don't have time and energy to do extensive testing on actual instruments. The instruments I make, I mostly need to sell; that's how I pay the bills. I set aside some time this year to pursue banjo-building ideas (and this treatment thing became one of them), but I've already used up more time than I should have, according to my bank account!! But it is fun!! And I'm learning a lot.

Fred

steveh_2o - Posted - 10/31/2016:  14:00:15

I had the bright idea to spray a tack-head calfskin with silicone "camp dry".

10-10 Would not recommend.

Dan Drabek - Posted - 10/31/2016:  14:38:34

Well, many of the possible waterproofing materials--such as wax, lacquer, etc. were available in the golden age of banjos, and I would guess that over the years, exhaustive  attempts were made to stabilize the head, and many materials applied to the skin were tried. The fact that most players--en masse, abandoned skin heads in favor of mylar probably means the cures were unsuccessful. 

The same phenomenon occurred with classical guitar players when Dupont developed nylon strings. In a very short time the use of gut strings became obsolete. You can still buy gut strings today, and some still believe they sound better than nylon, but the clear inconveniences apparently outweigh the perceived benefits. Gut strings are just as temperamental as calfskin banjo heads, and professional players can't afford to play temperamental instruments.

And where the pros go, so go the rest of us. Except for a small minority who choose to accept the inconveniences.  I guess that's why they call them die-hards. 

DD

Uncle Freddy - Posted - 11/01/2016:  16:31:13

Steveh,

Thanks...Camp Dry was something that has been suggested to me; I wasn't going to try it, as it's another product I'm overly sensitive to, but I'm glad to know I'm not missing anything good!

Dan, I agree people must have tried all sorts of things, over the years, and apparently didn't find an ideal solution. But part of the switch over to mylar was undoubtedly our cultures fixation with plastic as the wonder material; it still is amazing, amazing stuff. I don't know the timing, of when mylar heads became widely available, but it was probably at a time when plastic was still being seen as the greatest of inventions (maybe it still is seen that way!). We do have products (paints, glues, sealants) available now that weren't available 10, 20 or 50 years ago, so there are new possibilities for treating skin.

I'm interested in that whole switch from skin to plastic; when I was learning banjo in the early 1970s, the common line was that mylar/plastic was a huge improvement, and I was encouraged to replace my skin heads with mylar, which I did in a couple of instances. It took a couple of decades, and the lucky procurement of a nice, skin head banjo at a yard sale, to realize how much I liked the sound of skin. I've since switched one of those banjos back to skin, and like it so much better. Now I advise my old-time-banjo repair clients that they might really enjoy switching to skin; usually if they try it, they like the sound.
One thing I've noticed, which makes sense to me, is that the skin seems to lose some of its hygroscopic properties over time, or perhaps the cells just lose some of their elasticity. My 100-year-old Bruno, with it's original calf-skin head, just doesn't seem much effected by the rainy season, whereas the tack-head banjo I just made with new goatskin gets looser or tighter quite noticeably, with pretty slight changes in temperature and humidity.
This is true of wood, I know; we "season" wood for years before putting it into a guitar top, for instance. The process of "seasoning" is not just allowing the moisture level to decrease, it is literally letting it go through a large number of season changes...wet to dry and back again. There are cellular changes in the wood that happen as it ages that way (as well as a drying out/hardening of the oils in the wood).
Now, people are starting to mimic that with careful heat treatment...I wonder if heat-treating a banjo skin in a similar fashion would have any similar effect?

Or maybe pre-stretching a skin through a number of cycles of soaking/stretching/drying?

Fred

rudy - Posted - 11/01/2016:  17:28:48

Referring once again to the Brooks Masten comments on hide heads, Brooks made the claim that a hide head needs little to no adjustment to accommodate various humidity conditions IF the hide is mounted and stretched in using the correct procedure.  I'd prefer that to trying to stabilize a hide with noxious chemicals.  If you're going to seal the hide and make it into something it's not then you may as well install a mylar head.

His entire regimen for installing a head was detailed on his website, but he did add the caveat that his experience was based upon the use of goat hide and he did not know if it would be the same for calf hide.

The information is still out there if you want to research it, but you need to use the Wayback Machine to find the older versions of his website and blogs.  I'm not really divulging anything here that's not public knowledge if you know where to look.

BDCA - Posted - 11/01/2016:  18:17:54

My latest experience with a Balch head..Twoo weeks in Tucson at very low humidity, then a week in North Carolina, a few days back in Tucson then this  weekend at 7,000 feet in the Chirachoua Mountains with very low humidity. (Geronimo's old stomping grounds). I adjusted the head slightly after a few days in Chapel Hill but never loosened it. The banjo stayed in tune, reacted a bit to temperature at nigh when playaing around the camp fire, but sounded wonderful!

I think it much ado about nothing.

Bob

Uncle Freddy - Posted - 11/03/2016:  15:19:39

Rudy,

I'm with you on that! I'd much prefer if there was a way to use the mounting procedure to get a more stable skin without resorting some kind of chemical treatment, even if there was one that worked.

And Bob, it's great your banjo is behaving itself so well! I have an old banjo with calf skin that never has any problem; but the new tack-head I made has more reactivity than I'd like. Since I both play a lot, and build instruments for others for my living, this seems like an important issue for me to understand as best I can.

I appreciate the practice of supplying 2 bridges with an instrument; that's often done for fiddles but I never thought about that as solution for the same problem with banjos. However, it doesn't solve the problem of tonal change; my more reactive, goat-skin, tack-head banjo sounds wonderful most of the time, one of my favorite banjos ever. But when it's cold and rainy out, and I don't have a fire going in the woodstove, the skin loosens and the tone gets quieter and a bit floppy; still OK but just not its usual great sound. On the other hand, when the sun blasts into our solar-heated house in the late fall, and it gets hot and dry in there, the skin gets too tight, and the tone gets a bit too bright and edgy. Still pretty nice, but again not what I know it can be.

Thus my inspiration to look into this.

Fred

ClayTech - Posted - 11/03/2016:  15:33:16

quote:

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Originally posted by BDCA

 

If you use a penetrating wax or plastic, you are simply filling and sealing the leather with wax or plastic and no longer have a true skin head. To see what the acutaul effect of "waterproofing" one would have to have two identical banjos, heads, etc., and then see what the effect on the tone would be vs. the absorption of water vapor...an impossibility.

The changes in tension is the price we pay for a mellow sound..totally worth it IMHO.

 

Bob

 

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I treated my skin head after having on the banjo for a couple of months, and there was no change in tone after applying the wax. I can assure you it still sounds like a true skin head.