I have a 17 fret Vega Style M with a skin head that I have been playing a few reels and jigs with. I like it. But I have been switching between two legged and 3-legged bridges and trying to get the best out of the banjo.
I had a 17 fret Style M with a top frosted head and really liked the sound I got with that. Are you looking to get a brighter, crisper sound from your banjo?
Generally, if you are playing in Irish sessions you want a sharp sound with a G that growls. Many pros I know in Ireland use clear heads or Renaissance and very tight. I keep my heads on my Irish banjos around 95. I did have one of Johns skin heads on my 5 string Ramsey during the 3 months I spent in Ireland this past winter, and it was "interesting" going from the cold and damp into a pub with a blazing coal fire. The good news was that a few seconds in from of the fire and the head tightened up nicely. No issues with my tenor.
The style M is a tubaphone right, if so I have a clear head and a bridge from Bart Veerman on my Vegaphone, the bridge made a big difference for me and getting the best tone out of it for Irish tunes like BDCA said above. I will repeat, Bart's bridge was SO MUCH better than a standard 2 or 3 foot maple/ebony bridge. I will also say, I put a clear head on for looks, I wanted to see the inside and the pie plate resonator, so I worked around that to get the best tone from it.
So, I decided to try a clear head on my two banjos to determine whether or not there's a significant difference in the tonal quality. I quickly discovered there is in a big way! (BTW, the exclamation mark is not indicative of my satisfaction, either.) Firstly, in comparison to some I've read about here, my banjos are cheap. I have a Fender FB-59, and an Ibanez, the second I received as a Christmas gift in 1977. (Re: the Ibanez....I'd like to know the model, since it isn't 'stamped' anywhere to be seen. Someone mentioned it could be a Blue Mountain but no definite answer was given.) Anyway, digression is my strong suit, unfortunately... Clearer heads prevail. Ahhhhh.... Both banjos responded with a much more clear and bright tone. Surprisingly, the volume changed considerably. The Fender is much quieter than the Ibanez, which almost comes alive in my arms. That brings me back to identifying the Ibanez. If I knew the model, it may be possible to identify the alloy in the tone ring. That may help identify the rationale for the difference in volume. Notice I said 'may'. From my limited understanding of sound production; that being a combination of a number of different characteristics/features, ie. woods, alloys, shapes, humidy, etc., etc., in varying degrees, I do believe that the alloy in the Ibanez tone ring may help explain the volume increase. Anyway, that's my experience with clear heads. Today, I will put a new batter head back on the Ibanez since I'd like to have distinctively different sounding instruments. My plan is to purchase either a Stelling, or a Deering in the next month or so. Thanks for reading this post, and for the quality education I'm receiving as I read through your posts. You're certainly an intelligent bunch of musicians! I'm still trying to upload the pictures of the Ibanez. There in a default folder, where ever that it.....
I have found a clear head almost too harsh and thin. My head of choice is a super tight Elite or Renaissance head (the same) . Gives a warmer sound with more growle but again, must be super tight.
I've used cloud and renaissance heads in the past, but have settled on one of John Balch's skin heads, super thin, with a coating to control humidity, and it's really killer from my standpoint. I won't go back to the artificial ones. But that''s my personal taste and I realize I'm in the minority. But it also works super well with my custom Little Wonder banjo ...
I've recently acquired a Paramount A, that I intend to test and record a variety of different setups (bridges, heads, strings). Stay tuned, still working on the neck....heat press starts this weekend.
And, Rob's banjo looks and sounds great, wish I lived closer.
I have tried lots of head and tensions and personally for my Epiphone Recording Concert and my Orpheum #1 I prefer a Rennaissance head tightened to 89. It is plenty bright and has a good growl but has a fuller, richer sound than they do to my ear at a tighter setting. They sound great with this setup both in large and small sessions.
I have started touring with my new Gold Tone 12" open back full sized tenor with the small sand cast tone ring (my design..also has a 5 string neck) and I have a Renaissance head which is very tight. Since it's still stretching, I don't have a DD setting yet but I keep my 11" heads at 94-95.
The growl on the 12" is remarkable! I played in Boston Friday and Sunday and received lots of complements from my band and the audience.
BTW I'll be at the Irish Cultural Center session in West Springfield, MA. tonight. Dodging Hurricane Jose.
Hsssss, Nate. Well actually I used to use a clear head on the Epiphone and I do miss the ability to put someone's picture inside the banjo - made for an interesting effect and embarrassed the subject rather well (cuz he is another banjo player) but the Renn head sounded a little better.
I have started touring with my new Gold Tone 12" open back full sized tenor with the small sand cast tone ring (my design..also has a 5 string neck) and I have a Renaissance head which is very tight. Since it's still stretching, I don't have a DD setting yet but I keep my 11" heads at 94-95.
The growl on the 12" is remarkable! I played in Boston Friday and Sunday and received lots of complements from my band and the audience.
BTW I'll be at the Irish Cultural Center session in West Springfield, MA. tonight. Dodging Hurricane Jose.
Polle I wasn't sure if you can crank the 12" Renaissance heads up that high. Great information.
I don't think there is a better banjo for ITM than a 19 fret full scale 12" pot.
Gold Tone made a custom banjo for me with their 12" Baritone pot and TS-250 neck plus a Bob Carlin claw hammer neck. Packs in my suitcase. Last week I reassembled the banjo in the baggage hall in Boston , and went straight to my gig. The Gold Tone is my favourite tenor including my Paragon, Paramounts and Deering GDL.
I will be keeping an eye out for one like yours! Bob
Polle I wasn't sure if you can crank the 12" Renaissance heads up that high. Great information.
Bob,
Size doesn´t matter (as males are always claiming) - for a certain head type do always go for the same tension - whether the head is e.g. 10, 11 or 12".
But the resonance tone will for a BigPot of course be lower than for a SmallPot. Since my purchase of a Drum Dial many moons ago I´ve never looked back and tested/measured this tone for various banjos passing my workshop - the DD is simply the best tool ever for getting an ultimate head performance.
Interesting info about your GT - does this mean, that you´re swapping the necks depending of your actual use of this banjo?
BTW - in July I went to Copenhagen for an experience of and a meeting with Eddy Davis - a/the King of Jazz Tenor Banjo - on tours he´s normally using a custom built OME (by his own design) - 19" scale with a 12" pot - plus foldable! I did test it - however without good results - it´s far too short for my large hands and fat fingers - LOL!
I have seen John Carty as well as a woman I met in Clare this spring with a non foldable Ome 12" tenor, and of course Angelina uses a 12" open back pot.. Her's seems to have a mastertone type tone ring not mentioned on their web site.
This video may be relevent to this thread:
My new banjo has a small sand cast tone ring on a 12" pot which was made for the Bela Flec Baritone banjo. The banjo uses co-rods and takes 15 minutes to swap necks, which I did during a break at a gig in Boston last week. It stays in tune and both use the Gold Tone zero fret. In fact I decided to pack the pot and both necks in my luggage form my last trip and I assembled it in the baggage hall in Boston and drove straight to the gig. The 5 string scooped neck JUST fits in a standard medium hard side suitcase. It was wonderful not to have to worry about having space for my banjo in the overhead.
Gold Tone did use superior co-rod hardware and I have no concerns about stripping threads. I have replaced their humongous tailpiece with a standard Kirchner and crank it close to the head for ITM and much higher for Old Time Appalachian claw hammer.
The growl on the G is amazing, even with light gauge strings and it is now my favorite banjo for ITM.
BTW I have the head set for 92 but will crank it to 94 later today. Thanks for that tip.
My thinking is that a larger head is more easily deformed since the support is an extra half inch away from center so the drum dial will more easily deform the head, consequently the tension on the mylar reading 94 on an 11" may actually read lower on a 12" with the same tension on the mylar, since we are reading deformity rather than point to point tension across the head.
I have asked Oakwood to confirm pot size. I am going to try a Fiberskyn head when I have time. The tenor is AMAZING! The growl surpasses anything I have played but the Clawhammer sound is harsher than I prefer though not as harsh as most of the 11" tone ring banjos out there. I play 12" Ramsey Woodies.
I could be wrong about this, but when I saw her Oakwood banjo several years ago it seemed to me to be a standard 11" head with a 54 cm scale (21 1/4"), a Bolivian rosewood bridge and a clear Remo head. It had an American made mastertone style tone ring and a maple three ply rim. The tone ring was probably a Sullivan. She thought that the bridge might be Brazilian, but it was clearly Bolivian. The reason the banjo looks so big is that she is very small, probably 4'11" with small hands. The Oakwood site states : "We make our banjos from the finest available imported American hardware, selected timbers and handmade pots. The sound is clear and powerful, and our careful attention to detail means that the instruments are always well set up and easy to play." If you look at the pictures of her playing you will see that the bridge is not set closer to the center of the head as it would be with a 12" head.
I’m no expert by any means, but a 12” cast tone ring is either quite rare in the past, or has never existed until Gokd Tone made this one (?)
I’m extremely excited by your banjo as my three favirite banjos that I’ve heard would be Angelina’s (11” cast flathead), John Carty’s (12” rolled brass), and the classic 11 15/16” (?) Vega tubaphone. Your banjo might be all of these rolled into one.
I have to say it all sounds amazing, I am using Clareen light gauge strings as well. The banjo was an experiment and was a complete success but I am still working on the claw hammer sound. The Tailpiece was too big and I swapped it with a smaller one. The ability to tear it down in a few minutes and pack it in my suitcase is really amazing.. I have a Boulder gig bag which I roll up and throw in a small duffel.
No worries about space in the overhead or idiot gate attendants:
(From a recent United Flight, Seattle to San Francisco. This idot told my luggae was too big and I explaned it was legally an instrument, not luggage. The Captain, seen leaving the plane. found a supervisor who knew the law, apologizes, as did the entire crew and provided free food and wine all the way to SFO. The idiot was allowed to leave without identifing himself or his position.. I am fighting with united about this and will be posting it elswhere shortly)
Polle I wasn't sure if you can crank the 12" Renaissance heads up that high. Great information.
I don't think there is a better banjo for ITM than a 19 fret full scale 12" pot.
Oh Dear Bob!
Yet another fantastic BigPot popped up here yesterday - a near mint 1920 VEGA Style X No. 9 tenor - 97 years old - yet hardly played and still with its original bindings and frets in perfect condition - already separated into atoms by me - a new Renaissance head is on its way from UK - it will be pure joy for me overhauling and setting up this Lady over the next weeks:
On top the banjo is equipped with a few years later spin-on flush-fit resonator - and icw. my works it will be electrified with a built-in Johannes Bonefaas PU.
A top-pro ITM banjo - do keep an eye open for it at various venues around Europe - in the years to come!
I predict that in a few years we will see the Irish banjo makers get on the "band wagon" and start building 12" open back tone ring banjos for ITM.
Oakwood does not make any 12" banjos.at this time. The shorter scale length on Angelina's moves the bridge towards the center which helps produce a more 12" sound.
I'd love to hear some sound samples when you are finished. Were all the Vega big pot banjos the same diameter?
Still itching to see a video of that large pot banjo, Bob. ;)
Also, I believe it's been confirmed that the pot that Angelina plays is an 11".
Just received an email from Oakwood confirming an 11" pot and a 17 fret neck with 21 1/4" scale length.
Attache a few bics of the "Duo"
FYI I installed a 12" Fiber Skyn head and while it improved the sound with the clawhammer neck, it was dull and lifeless for ITM. I have removed it and put the Rennassaince back on cranked to 94.
I predict that in a few years we will see the Irish banjo makers get on the "band wagon" and start building 12" open back tone ring banjos for ITM.
Oakwood does not make any 12" banjos.at this time. The shorter scale length on Angelina's moves the bridge towards the center which helps produce a more 12" sound.
I'd love to hear some sound samples when you are finished. Were all the Vega big pot banjos the same diameter?
Bob,
AFAIK all vintage BigPot VEGA´s do have a 11-13/16" pot. Do however be aware - as earlier mentioned - the early 20s examples do have only 16 frets free of the body - whereas e.g. my 1923 Style M has 17 frets free - mind you with both versions having a 20-7/8" scale. Thus my Style M has the bridge placed a little closer to the center of the head - IMO even better suited for ITM - for jazz tunings I do personally prefer the early version - with its somewhat sharper/clearer sound and somewhat shorter sustain.
Once the No. 9 has been finished - I´ll try to record it when played by its owner - on top maybe also my Style M.
I have a Vega style M open back. Originally had a weatherking plastic head and I changed it to a clear plastic head. The sound improved dramatically (in my opinion). It's only $20 or so. Give it a try.
The 1920 Style X No. 9 - with a 1922-23 spin-on flush-fit resonator - will be picked up by its owner Sunday - optimized my way as described plus equipped with a Schatten/Line6 wireless amplification system.
I´m just now testing its performances - "acoustic" versus "electric" - the latter by using my fantastic BOSE PA-system:
At the same time I´m comparing it acoustically with my own 1923 Style M - with an original semi-extended resonator - optimized and set up in exactly the same way.
Both banjos are in absolutely near mint condition (or better) - what a joy having these almost 100 years old Beauties sitting next to me - the only difference of importance is that the Style X has 16 frets free of the body - whereas the Style M has 17 - mind you both have a scale of 20-7/8"!
I´ve asked the owner of the Style X to make some recordings of both banjos - I´ll for this use my rather new top-pro Canon camera with a RØDE condenser stereo-mike:
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If lucky - he and I will produce some nice recordings - showing the differences in acoustic sound, sustain and power. If so - I´ll up-load and publish these at YT.
Bob - I´m myself not an ITM player - that´s why I´ve asked my buddy playing them at the recordings - but being regarded a banjo wizard/specialist my own judgement of these fantastic BigPots is nevertheless already clear and present - for playability I simply love the slim neck at the Style X - but for performance I do absolutely prefer the more clumpsy Style M - the position of the bridge closer to the mid of the head does IMO give it a much better performance.
Well - maybe the recordings can reveal more about this - LOL!
Bob - don´t await too much for now - this really advanced recording gear is completely new to me - the manuals for it are of a size of a Bible (or two) - do have in mind that I´m an atheist - however I´ll do my best tomorrow - when recording my buddy and the Ladies.
But - after having restored/overhauled/rebuilt/set up all sorts of often very costly ITM tenors over the later years - I do consider these two VEGA BigPots crème de la crème - only a few months ago another buddy of mine owning and normally playing an absolutely mint CEP visited me for a re-newed check/adjustment of his beloved and extremely costly jo - while doing so he tested my Style M - his immediate reply/reaction was - why on earth did I pay 6K for my CEP - this Style M has a far better playability and performance!
The fantastic Style X No. 9 has now been picked up - and I´ve recorded both this and my Style M. More about this later - I´ll have to edit the recordings at first hand.
Sadly I´m not allowed telling you all about the Style X etc. - but I can reveal that it belonged to one Mr. Barney McKenna untill his death five years ago. I take that you know of this guy!
During todays visit two other of Barney´s instruments - a custom built German banjo and a Weymann Style A mandolin - were btw. presented to and tested by me.
Well - I´ve chosen not to edit todays video/sound clips in any way - so here´re for your own comparison my two somewhat rough recordings:
1) VEGA Style X No. 9 from 1920 - with a 1922-23 spin-on flush-fit resonator -.untill his death owned by Barney McKenna - lately overhauled and set up by yours truly - youtube.com/edit?o=U&video...xj1-dCEHI
2) VEGA Style M from 1923 - with an original pie crust semi-extended resonator - lately overhauled, rebuilt and set up by yours truly in exactly the same way as the Style X mentioned above - youtube.com/edit?o=U&video...xrh216nxk
Guys - do plug in your best headphones or your Hi-Fi system - these two Big-Pot banjos are IMO some of the best ITM tenors ever built.
There have in the past been some threads/discussions here at BHO regarding Barney´s choice of strings.
I can now confirm that he used Thomastik-Infeld strings for all of his instruments. However T-I did never make/market a banjo set for GDAE tuning - I´ve in the past had some writings with the company about this.
My source is now digging a little deeper - but it does for now seem that Barney took the 3 most heavy strings from the marketed CGDA set - with the gauges 015-021W-031W - and did then add a heavy flat wound T-I single string meant for guitar or whatever - to be used as his G-string.
I´ll welcome any knowledge/ideas regarding this - in the future I´ll for a test like setting up an ITM banjo á la Barney.
I think the X cosmetically is my favorite banjo of all time.
The style M sounded better to me which is probably in part due to the deeper resonator. I love overtones and stacking harmonics. This can be a problem at a live show, but I love it for recording.
Bob,
I love your setup!! I play old time clawhammer on my 5 string and ITM on my tenor at shows quite a bit.
I almost caused a mutiny flying out of Atlanta a few weeks ago because of my tenor in the overhead. Delta as usual oversold the flight.
Played the Irish setup last week at the Harp and Celt in Orlando and Clawhammer yesterday at the Fall Jamboree in Barberville , FL. Heading to Gold Tone tomorrow to say hi and get a few glitches looked at, then take it apart and pack it in my suitcase. The gig bag goes in the overhead packed with clothing.
Captain found a supervisor and he "recalled" the idiot and they apologized all the way from Seatac to SFO with free wine and food, plus a $100 "we're sorry"
Polle: I am still on the road with a laptop but would love to hear just a scale going from open G to High A. Maid Behind the Bar is mostly on the upper strings and I think the G string is the real prize in the larger pots.
Bob - regarding the missing use of the G-string - I did realize this myself afterwards - but then the guy and the Style X had long gone.
I´ll today/tomorrow try recording the Style M myself - I´m not an ITM player, but who cares - it´s all about the performance of the banjo.
Andy - I´ve this year myself tested two 16-fret Style X´s versus my 17-fret Style M - in both CGDA, DGBE and GDAE tunings - both as open-backers and as resonator banjos by use of my semi-extended resonator on both styles.
The resonator does make the sound of both styles somewhat more rich and does increase the power of both very much - but the really big difference between the two styles does come from the position of the bridge.
My best friend - a highly skilled musician - took part in these tests - we both agreed on this conclusion: We find the Style X indeed suited for e.g. jazz playing with either the CGDA or the DGBE tuning - the Style M not so much - but for the GDAE tuning as normally used for ITM we find the Style M far far better than the Style X.
Another friend - normally playing ITM on his mint CEP (set up by yours truly in the same way as the VEGA BigPots) - did this summer test my Style M - his immediate response was - why on earth did I pay 6K for my CEP - this Style M does beat it in any way - with regards to both playability and performance.
The bridge position didn't even cross my mind even though you had mentioned it earlier. That makes perfect sense.
Do all of the the 17 fret style M vegas have a 12 inch pot with the same scale length?
I came across a Concertone with a 12 inch pot this past weekend at a bluegrass/old tyme festival I was playing in Memphis. It really needed a setup, but I liked the tone.
I really liked the sound of your style M. I have two recording projects coming up in December and I might try to scramble around and find a good 17 fret style M.
By going back to my earlier postings at this thread I´ve noticed that I´m sometimes repeating myself - Sorry! - is this maybe a sign of an up-coming dementia - LOL! ?
However I´ll repeat myself once more - AFAIK all early 20s BigPot TubaPhones do have a 11-13/16" pot size - and the tenor examples do have a scale of 20-7/8". Please correct me if I´m wrong - I´m not a VEGA specialist - B&D is my specialty.
Again AFAIK - VEGA was like B&D rather late to the party regarding the 23" long scale tenors - the earliest example like this for me to see dates to 1925 - however this is not a BigPot. I wonder - for how long did VEGA continue building these?
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