docmarc - Posted - 02/01/2019:  14:08:17

Please allow me to ask your patience for the length of this...

I proudly own Stelling Bellflower #1096 Dated 1979. Purchased new directly from Geoff. A few years ago I was having the first 5-6 frets replaced. The Luthier at the time noted a hairline crack coming from the 1st string peg hole. Not knowing if it was a finish crack or a structural crack, he suggested that I send the neck to Geoff for his view. Luthier removed the neck, we packaged it up, sent it to Stelling - who sent it back a few weeks later fully repaired. That's the back story for my problem.

The neck was re-installed. The banjo sat for several years unplayed. Late in 2018 I had occasion to play it again and found that it had a noticeable 'buzz' at several frets.

I checked neck relief with a straight edge and feeler gauge. String height at the 12th with an 1/8" steel flat. Tailpiece at 1/4" from the bottom of the tailpiece to the head. Head tightened to roughly G/G#...all measurements were within the specs of Geoff's Service Manual (The manual is so vintage it has the 'Keep On Truckin' dude on the front.)
Still buzzing.
Took the banjo to Lane at Lane's Luthery in Madison, WI. He deduced that there was a high fret. I watched him level the fretboard after flattening the neck with the truss rod, There was one fret (the 6th) that was out of spec. He flattened the entire fingerboard, dressed the frets and re-checked levels with a Stew-Mac device. Completely flat, no rocking of the device.

Lane re-set the neck relief by eye and the string height using the tension rods. In his shop, it didn't sound bad.

At home, I heard a fuzz/buzz yet.
I changed strings to a set of D’Addario Light Plus, checked the neck relief at the 7th (.030), string height at the 12th (slightly over .125), tailpiece height just under .25” from the head, head tightened to ‘stiff pressure’. Banjo has a reverse tilt 11/16” bridge with standard slots.
Still getting the buzz. No loose parts, all nuts, thumbscrews, are tight.
Checking the neck, it looks perfectly installed – no cocking or twist.
I feel there is something obvious that I’m missing. This banjo used to be a cannon – clear all the way up the neck, easy to play, a ton of tone and loud as a cement truck.
It’s still loud and has some good tone un-capoed, but has lost much of its bell-like tone up the neck. With a capo, it’s ‘whangy’, (not sure that’s a word)…note separation is muddy, I still hear a subtle fuzz/buzz, particularly on the 3rd string up the neck.
I’m already spent several hundred $ trying to solve this and I’d sure like to find the solution before shipping it off for several hundred more $.
What am I missing?

Alex Z - Posted - 02/01/2019:  14:39:30

The problem has not been diagnosed yet.  Don't know where the "buzz" is coming from.

a.  Does the buzz occur on all strings?  Which strings?

b.  Which frets and which strings does the buzz occur on?  Does it occur on the 5th string?

c.  Does the buzz occur on open strings?  Which strings?

d.  Where in the note does the buzz occur, and how long does it last?  This is a little tougher to figure out, but careful listening will get you there.

    For example, there can be a buzz or rattle occurring the "front end" of the note, exactly at the attack, when the string is released.

   There can be a buzz occurring just after the attack, that just lasts for a short time.

    There can be a buzz occurring as the string decays.

e.  With very high relief -- your .030 -- and string height at the 12th fret at .125 (which is actually low give the high relief), the banjo will tend to buzz in the area of 5-12 frets, mostly around 6-10.  Is this where the buzzing is?

f.  Knock on the back of the neck with your knuckle.  Do you hear a hard, firm knock, or something rattling?

    If you hear something rattling, then one thing to check are the coordinator rods.  With the resonator off, tap each coordinator rod with your knuckle.  Do you hear a rattle?  Doesn't matter if the nuts at each end are tight -- lash in the screw threads could let the co-rods rattle.

  If the neck rattles and it's not the co-rods, then give the truss rod a very slight twist to the right (1/8 turn), taking out the lash of the truss rod nut and exerting some pressure by the truss rod against the neck.

All in all, need more information to diagnose.  There are simply too many moving parts on a banjo to go at it by trial and error.

You'll get there.    Let us know what you find.  

Edited by - Alex Z on 02/01/2019 14:40:19

xnavyguy - Posted - 02/01/2019:  17:00:16

Are you sure it's a buzz and not some sort of overtone because of the head tension. I had a similar problem with a Stelling and it turned out to be a problem with head tension. Stellings are slightly different beasts from Mastertones and the heads need to be a little tighter, closer to an A than a G#.

rudy - Posted - 02/01/2019:  17:23:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by docmarc

Please allow me to ask your patience for the length of this...



I proudly own Stelling Bellflower #1096 Dated 1979. Purchased new directly from Geoff. A few years ago I was having the first 5-6 frets replaced. The Luthier at the time noted a hairline crack coming from the 1st string peg hole. Not knowing if it was a finish crack or a structural crack, he suggested that I send the neck to Geoff for his view. Luthier removed the neck, we packaged it up, sent it to Stelling - who sent it back a few weeks later fully repaired. That's the back story for my problem.



The neck was re-installed. The banjo sat for several years unplayed. Late in 2018 I had occasion to play it again and found that it had a noticeable 'buzz' at several frets.



I checked neck relief with a straight edge and feeler gauge. String height at the 12th with an 1/8" steel flat. Tailpiece at 1/4" from the bottom of the tailpiece to the head. Head tightened to roughly G/G#...all measurements were within the specs of Geoff's Service Manual (The manual is so vintage it has the 'Keep On Truckin' dude on the front.)

Still buzzing.

Took the banjo to Lane at Lane's Luthery in Madison, WI. He deduced that there was a high fret. I watched him level the fretboard after flattening the neck with the truss rod, There was one fret (the 6th) that was out of spec. He flattened the entire fingerboard, dressed the frets and re-checked levels with a Stew-Mac device. Completely flat, no rocking of the device.



Lane re-set the neck relief by eye and the string height using the tension rods. In his shop, it didn't sound bad.



At home, I heard a fuzz/buzz yet.

I changed strings to a set of D’Addario Light Plus, checked the neck relief at the 7th (.030), string height at the 12th (slightly over .125), tailpiece height just under .25” from the head, head tightened to ‘stiff pressure’. Banjo has a reverse tilt 11/16” bridge with standard slots.

Still getting the buzz. No loose parts, all nuts, thumbscrews, are tight.

Checking the neck, it looks perfectly installed – no cocking or twist.

I feel there is something obvious that I’m missing. This banjo used to be a cannon – clear all the way up the neck, easy to play, a ton of tone and loud as a cement truck.

It’s still loud and has some good tone un-capoed, but has lost much of its bell-like tone up the neck. With a capo, it’s ‘whangy’, (not sure that’s a word)…note separation is muddy, I still hear a subtle fuzz/buzz, particularly on the 3rd string up the neck.

I’m already spent several hundred $ trying to solve this and I’d sure like to find the solution before shipping it off for several hundred more $.

What am I missing?

---

A good set-up person?

Your .030" relief is way more than required and could more simply be called "too much forward bow".

There are a lot of things that can cause sympathetic resonance or "buzzing".  I'd look first for an internal truss rod buzz or even a head buzz from improper tensioning or some other rim component that's positioned in a way to create a potential buzz.

Have you woven some damping material in the after-length area of the strings between the bridge and the tailpiece?

Buzzes or rattles sometimes drive us a bit crazy, but you CAN find the source and remediate if you systematically go through the possibilities.

Edited by - rudy on 02/01/2019 17:26:04

lightgauge - Posted - 02/02/2019:  04:03:50

With the neck issues you mention, check both tuners and tuner knobs for tightness, including the 5th.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 02/02/2019:  04:36:43

You might PM Geoff Stelling and see if he can answer your questions. Perhaps he's seen the same problem or a similar one in that model. He's a very nice man and if he has an idea why the problem is happening, I feel he would gladly give you information.

steve davis - Posted - 02/02/2019:  07:06:41

I remember reading somewhere that Geoff uses .022" relief at the 7th fret.

docmarc - Posted - 02/02/2019:  08:27:10

My sincere thank you for all of the responses. I've printed them out and will try the suggestions.

I'll put the results out here - hoping that one of the steps is the solution.

Thanks again...

Michael

steve davis - Posted - 02/02/2019:  09:44:45

At a certain point in time Geoff used compensated nuts on his banjos.If that was changed out to a straight one maybe there's a problem there.

heavy5 - Posted - 02/02/2019:  11:06:32

Arm rests can cause an unwanted buzz if they are not padded where they touch the hooks . Also tailpieces if they are too close to or just resting on the tension hoop .
Try different tailpiece angles slightly changing string tension from the bridge or if they have a pivoting cover such as a presto that needs padding under the cover lid .
Measure first so you can come back to the original TP height if needed .

Alex Z - Posted - 02/02/2019:  17:15:22

Complaint:  A fuzz buzz at several frets after several years of storage.  Fret dress did not fix.

Remedy:  Only, 984 more guesses to go.  

Need more information on the where and the what of the buzzes -- strings, frets, sounds, etc.

Could be a back buzz on the string.  983.

On my Stelling 3rd string, the portion from the nut to the tuner was rubbing on the truss rod cover.  Had to file a small groove so that the string would not vibrate on the truss rod cover.  982.

docmarc - Posted - 02/03/2019:  09:39:17

:::On my Stelling 3rd string, the portion from the nut to the tuner was rubbing on the truss rod cover. Had to file a small groove so that the string would not vibrate on the truss rod cover. :::

Interesting Alex... I've put a small chunk of rubber band in the gap where the 2nd and 3rd strings pass the tuner pegs for the 1st and 4th strings. The middle strings were literally a hair's-breadth from touching the posts on the other strings.

Make a difference? I really can't say because I've been making a number of suggested changes as a result of this thread. In total, there has been a difference:

It was suggested that head tension might be an issue. I've gone through the head and brought it up to a tap-tuned 'A' / 'Bb' - to my surprise, that HELPED A LOT with the buzz/fuzz!

I brought the neck relief down from .030 to .024 at the 7th and lowered the strings at the 12th to under .125...that helped gain some tone that the banjo had lost.

I am not delighted yet with the tone capoed. To me, it still seems fuzzy - not punchy like it used to. On the plus side, this sucker is loud again....swear it will break windows.

Waiting to see if there is any change in the head tension.

Thanks for your insights...I do appreciate it.

Michael

Alex Z - Posted - 02/03/2019:  10:02:10

"It was suggested that head tension might be an issue. I've gone through the head and brought it up to a tap-tuned 'A' / 'Bb' - to my surprise, that HELPED A LOT with the buzz/fuzz!



"I brought the neck relief down from .030 to .024 at the 7th and lowered the strings at the 12th to under .125...that helped gain some tone that the banjo had lost."

OK.  That's more information.  Good.   First, you tightened the head from G/G3 to A/Bb.  That's one whole tone.  That's a lot.  No problem with the head tension if it sounds good to you.  But what this indicates is that the action had to increase also because the bridge doesn't sink as far into the head.  The result was "HELPED A LOT."  That makes sense if the source of the buzz was action too low.

Recall my note that if the relief is too much, the action is effectively too low even if it measures .125.

If you're asking me (and you are asking all of us -- ), I would recommend at this point to first reduce the relief to .018 - .022  (can use a piece of a .020 4th string to measure), and then raise the action to .125, in that order.  Remember to turn the truss  rod a tiny bit to tighten at the end of the adjustment, to take the lash out of the screw threads.  You may need a thin hardwood or metal shim (such as a piece of a .005-.009 flat gauge) at the heel, or a higher bridge to get the action right -- don't monkey with the coordinator rods too much, and don't use cardboard, plastic, playing cards, paper as a shim.  If your ears are sensitive to tone -- and it appears they are -- you'll hear a loss of tone.

I think at that point you'll be pretty close buzz free and still have the tone you want.

Check back in.  I've had two Stellings.  They are "race car" type banjos, in that they are tremendous instruments and are sensitive to small adjustments.  Glad it's sounding good to you now.

Tony Mabe - Posted - 02/06/2019:  14:02:19

Minus the buzz, I had the same problem with dead tone, little sustain from my RB-4. Turns out, the upper coordinator rod was the culprit. Number one, some banjos are finicky about how much tension is on that rod. It it's too loose, you get too much flabbiness in the tone, to much, and it will choke the sustain and make the tone muddy. Number two, if it does affect action in small increments, so too tight, action too low. Too loose, it'll be too high. Heads can go dead with time and tightening/loosening. So that's a possibility. Also, this sounds too simple, but I've gotten bad batches of strings that were just dead and sometimes buzzed or rattled.

Richard Hauser - Posted - 02/07/2019:  09:35:15

I bought a Stelling Sunflower from a guy, and I had string buzzing. Around the 5th fret area. I had a qualified person do a neck reset and the problem disappeared.

I didn't do the work myself. I didn't want to turn a minor problem into a major problem. Wasn't that expensive.

docmarc - Posted - 02/07/2019:  13:09:33

An update on my Stelling...thanks to all who commented with suggestions and in particular Alex - who helped me apply the changes in a logical order.

The banjo is dramatically changed from just a week ago.

The head was brought up to a strong G# almost A. The neck relief was reset followed by bridge placement and string height adjustments. Tailpiece is just under .250" from the bottom of the tailpiece to the top of the head. Strings are now Mediums+ with .11s for the 1st and 5th.

All in all, the banjo is just about back to where my memory tells me it was many years ago.

Thank you everyone...this is a great forum and I'm very happy that I joined it.

Michael

docmarc - Posted - 02/28/2019:  10:32:26

Update on 70s Stelling...

I sent the banjo back to Geoff Stelling. Just could not resolve the tone and playability issues in spite of hours of trying.

He reset all of the specs, replaced the bridge, fixed a couple dings and adjusted all of the adjustments.

This 40 year old banjo is back to what it was.

Again, thank you all who shared your thoughts and experiences. I learned a lot...

Michael