ChunoTheDog - Posted - 07/23/2022:  10:38:50

Hello,

I have on hand a late 20s Roger's Union Brand skin head in excellent shape. I wish to install it on my 1928 TB3 conversion.

Trouble is, I cannot find any resources via BHO searches or elsewhere online on how to achieve this.

Would anyone have some step by step instructions on how to install one of these?

Thanks in advance!

The Old Timer - Posted - 07/23/2022:  10:55:36

Is it already mounted to a flesh hoop? If so, just put it on like any other head, but crank it down SLOWLY. Some say dampen your fingers and go around the outer inch of the head to help it stretch just a little.

Oh, make sure it's an 11" diameter!

ChunoTheDog - Posted - 07/23/2022:  10:57:02

Yes thankfully its mounted already.... I read somewhere to dampen it but that seems weird to me as I dont want the tone ring or anything else to rust?



How slowly should I bring it up to tension?

Apologies in advance if these are all dumb questions ;)

Edited by - ChunoTheDog on 07/23/2022 10:57:47

Culloden - Posted - 07/23/2022:  12:01:53

If it's a TB3 it will have a nickel-plated brass tone ring. It won't rust.
There is not really a need to dampen a skin head if it has been previously mounted, but some people do just as a safety precaution. I would just mount it like a plastic head and tighten it over a period of several days. I did this once before without dampening and it still plays fine after twelve years.

ChunoTheDog - Posted - 07/23/2022:  12:05:44

Thank you very much for that tidbit of info, that makes sense.

As for getting it up to tension, can I assume I will have an unplayable banjo for the next couple days?

Or is it more a question of the head slackening again somewhat and having to be re-tightened over a few days until it holds stable tension?

The Old Timer - Posted - 07/23/2022:  12:14:40

I think it will be playable, even as the head slowly settles in.

You will probably want to tighten it a bit more in a day or so.

Just go slow and let your ears and hands guide you.

Alvin Conder - Posted - 07/23/2022:  13:14:26

Do as mentioned above.

The thing with skin heads, you have to constantly be after them amd keep them at the proper tension based on temperature and humidity. No real big deal, unless it’s bone dry or damp as all heck in your area. After doing it a while, it becomes no different than tuning your strings.

I keep skin heads on all my banjos except two or three post WWII instruments I have. I feel the sound difference is worth the extra effort.

I’ve put on a number of old pre mounted heads over the years. If you don’t dampen the head, you should be good to go right off, but you will need to adjust the first few days as the even an old head will stretch some.

Nic Pennsylvania - Posted - 07/23/2022:  15:42:12

I'll add that, as years go by, the seem to be less susceptible to climatic issues. Not 100%, but less. I spray a thin coat of Scotch Gaurd on new heads.

ChunoTheDog - Posted - 07/23/2022:  15:50:46

Alright gentlemen thank you immensely for the widom.

I am about to swap out an 80s era Remo top frosted for this old Rogers Union Brand.

So, how slow is slow, when bringing a skin head up to tension for the first time?
Am I aiming for playing tension (G#, A or whatever) upon the first tightening session? Or aiming for 'firm' but not quite up to that G#/A ?

Thanks again to you all. I love learning new things on BHO.

ChunoTheDog - Posted - 07/23/2022:  15:51:22

Granted I will not use a drum dial but rather tap tone/ my ears and the ruler/coin method.

The Old Timer - Posted - 07/23/2022:  16:58:30

As long as you tighten the head EVENLY and slowly, you can bring it up to G certainly and let it rest a day or so and then give it some more.

The main thing is not to crack or split it by rushing when you tighten. Take your time and make sure nothing is pinching or folding.

Has this head ever been mounted before? Is it REALLY dry and brittle and feel likely to crack? Or is it nice and "supple"?

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 07/23/2022:  18:04:23

Make sure the crown height is correct for that TB 3. An archtop will need a different crown than a flat head.

ChunoTheDog - Posted - 07/23/2022:  19:01:54

quote:

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Originally posted by The Old Timer

As long as you tighten the head EVENLY and slowly, you can bring it up to G certainly and let it rest a day or so and then give it some more.



The main thing is not to crack or split it by rushing when you tighten. Take your time and make sure nothing is pinching or folding.



Has this head ever been mounted before? Is it REALLY dry and brittle and feel likely to crack? Or is it nice and "supple"?

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It came off another 2pf raised head Mastertone. The head itself is very clean.

It does feel very dry, tho. 

revellfa - Posted - 07/23/2022:  20:12:48

Slowly. Very slowly or it will split. Take weeks…

Alvin Conder - Posted - 07/23/2022:  20:29:40

Frankie, I don’t know about weeks. I’ve dropped on more than a few old Rogers heads that I brought up to tune in 1/2 hour or so to playing condition. Never popped a one. Always easy as pie and zero problems as long as you go slowly and consistently around the pot to tighten the brackets.



If you are speaking about a new head, yes, that can take weeks.



The only skin head that ever popped on me was a really nice thin new skin one that I had on a Fretless. Kept it on the wall in our bedroom for years for a kick around banjo. One night while I was in a dead sleep, the damn thing decided to give up the ghost at around 3:00 AM. Sounded like a gun shot and Drove the dogs to heck barking and scared the living you know what out of me and my wife. Since then, no more skin banjo heads in the bedroom.

Edited by - Alvin Conder on 07/23/2022 20:31:11

Bill H - Posted - 07/24/2022:  03:56:39

I have several old Rogers heads. You need to be sure the crown height and diameter are correct. If the crown height is too low or too high it may not be compatible with the neck profile.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 07/24/2022:  04:18:52

quote:

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Originally posted by ChunoTheDog

Yes thankfully its mounted already.... I read somewhere to dampen it but that seems weird to me as I dont want the tone ring or anything else to rust?

 

 

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No worries—It can't make the tone ring rust, as they are made from bronze, and plated as well.

For what it's worth, the reason those tone rings have a "skirt" (which has become an element of "Mastertone setup lore"—whether it should be loose or tight) is because when that design was developed, there were no plastic heads, and skin heads were set wet. The skirt protected the wooden rim from getting slimed up.  Tu-Ba-phones, Whyte Laydies, Dobsons, Bacons, and virtually all tone rings had skirts for that reason, and it still remains a tone ring feature despite the rarity of skin heads today.  

Eric A - Posted - 07/24/2022:  04:39:54

quote:

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Originally posted by Ken LeVan

quote:

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Originally posted by ChunoTheDog

Yes thankfully its mounted already.... I read somewhere to dampen it but that seems weird to me as I dont want the tone ring or anything else to rust?

 

 

---

No worries—It can't make the tone ring rust, as they are made from bronze, and plated as well.

For what it's worth, the reason those tone rings have a "skirt" (which has become an element of "Mastertone setup lore"—whether it should be loose or tight) is because when that design was developed, there were no plastic heads, and skin heads were set wet. The skirt protected the wooden rim from getting slimed up.  Tu-Ba-phones, Whyte Laydies, Dobsons, Bacons, and virtually all tone rings had skirts for that reason, and it still remains a tone ring feature despite the rarity of skin heads today.  

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FWIW, I'm guessing that's also the reason for adjustable tailpieces.  On a daily basis with changes in the weather and a skin head, it's easier to give the tailpiece a tweak than to mess with ALL the hooks.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 07/24/2022:  04:46:11

quote:

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Originally posted by Eric A

quote:

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Originally posted by Ken LeVan

quote:

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Originally posted by ChunoTheDog

Yes thankfully its mounted already.... I read somewhere to dampen it but that seems weird to me as I dont want the tone ring or anything else to rust?

 

 

---

No worries—It can't make the tone ring rust, as they are made from bronze, and plated as well.

For what it's worth, the reason those tone rings have a "skirt" (which has become an element of "Mastertone setup lore"—whether it should be loose or tight) is because when that design was developed, there were no plastic heads, and skin heads were set wet. The skirt protected the wooden rim from getting slimed up.  Tu-Ba-phones, Whyte Laydies, Dobsons, Bacons, and virtually all tone rings had skirts for that reason, and it still remains a tone ring feature despite the rarity of skin heads today.  

---

FWIW, I'm guessing that's also the reason for adjustable tailpieces.  On a daily basis with changes in the weather and a skin head, it's easier to give the tailpiece a tweak than to mess with ALL the hooks.

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True—I'll go one step further and say that the reason Gibson touted the coordinator rod in their ads as an action adjuster is because when the weather is damp, the skin head sags, and the strings buzz—wouldn't it be wonderful if you could adjust that with a simple rod underneath?

Eric A - Posted - 07/24/2022:  04:50:59

quote:

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Originally posted by Ken LeVan

quote:

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Originally posted by Eric A

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ken LeVan

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChunoTheDog

Yes thankfully its mounted already.... I read somewhere to dampen it but that seems weird to me as I dont want the tone ring or anything else to rust?

 

 

---

No worries—It can't make the tone ring rust, as they are made from bronze, and plated as well.

For what it's worth, the reason those tone rings have a "skirt" (which has become an element of "Mastertone setup lore"—whether it should be loose or tight) is because when that design was developed, there were no plastic heads, and skin heads were set wet. The skirt protected the wooden rim from getting slimed up.  Tu-Ba-phones, Whyte Laydies, Dobsons, Bacons, and virtually all tone rings had skirts for that reason, and it still remains a tone ring feature despite the rarity of skin heads today.  

---

FWIW, I'm guessing that's also the reason for adjustable tailpieces.  On a daily basis with changes in the weather and a skin head, it's easier to give the tailpiece a tweak than to mess with ALL the hooks.

---

True—I'll go one step further and say that the reason Gibson touted the coordinator rod in their ads as an action adjuster is because when the weather is damp, the skin head sags, and the strings buzz—wouldn't it be wonderful if you could adjust that with a simple rod underneath?

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Yes!   So, to summarize, a ton of today's "standard" features are based on skin heads which are used on...what?...1% of banjos today?  What a funny instrument we play!

ChunoTheDog - Posted - 07/24/2022:  09:15:18

Well gentlemen, upon further review...the Rogers head has an ever so tiny hairline tear underneath it, at the 'crimp' or fold with the flesh hoop upon which it is mounted (pictures below).

Had this head in storage about a year but just got around to giving it a close inspection yesterday as I was getting set up for the head swap.

I guess this project will have to take a back seat until I can source another old Roger's head for this TB-3.
If anybody has one already mounted for an archtop 2pf Mastertone, drop me a line!

Really too bad as I was eager to return this banjo as close as possible to the way it left the Gibson factory in 1928.

 

Culloden - Posted - 07/24/2022:  11:03:37

Well, that was a bummer.

ChunoTheDog - Posted - 07/24/2022:  11:10:00

quote:

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Originally posted by Culloden

Well, that was a bummer.

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Agreed, it was going to be a fun little project. 

Bart Veerman - Posted - 07/24/2022:  22:21:06

Hi Antoine,

On the picture it shows that the tear in the head is at the bottom of the flesh hoop, not on the "playing surface."

Nothing to loose when installing it as-is. The tear may spread over time but I'm guessing that'll be quite a while and a lot of playing fun can happen until then 

Bart.

ChunoTheDog - Posted - 07/25/2022:  06:53:08

quote:

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Originally posted by Bart Veerman

Hi Antoine,

On the picture it shows that the tear in the head is at the bottom of the flesh hoop, not on the "playing surface."

Nothing to loose when installing it as-is. The tear may spread over time but I'm guessing that'll be quite a while and a lot of playing fun can happen until then 

Bart.

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I thought about it also. But it's a lot of work for something that may pop right away under tension. 

Jbo1 - Posted - 07/25/2022:  07:40:13

When you do get another skin head, don't forget Earl's method for knowing how tight is tight enough: "Tighten the head until it splits, and then back it off a bit."

steen - Posted - 07/28/2022:  08:54:01

It looks like a very nice head, and I would give it a chance. But I would not mount it until I (with strong glue) had given the crack a wide patch from a discarded calf head to to keep the crack from widening further. Then I would mount it and hope for the best. I am not a fan of wetting skins too much before mounting, because if the do not dry up completely evenly the first dry areas may shrink and pull the still wet areas "thin". I have seen that, and there are strong powers taking place in a stretched skin drying up. Nobody here has suggested to make the whole skin wet in order to pull the tension hoop down. I only mention it, in case somebody else will try. So patch it, mount it and go slow. Steen.

ChunoTheDog - Posted - 07/28/2022:  09:04:51

quote:

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Originally posted by steen

It looks like a very nice head, and I would give it a chance. But I would not mount it until I (with strong glue) had given the crack a wide patch from a discarded calf head to to keep the crack from widening further. Then I would mount it and hope for the best. I am not a fan of wetting skins too much before mounting, because if the do not dry up completely evenly the first dry areas may shrink and pull the still wet areas "thin". I have seen that, and there are strong powers taking place in a stretched skin drying up. Nobody here has suggested to make the whole skin wet in order to pull the tension hoop down. I only mention it, in case somebody else will try. So patch it, mount it and go slow. Steen.

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I've been mulling over how to salvage this otherwise fine old Rogers head. 

I do not have another hide from which to cannibalize a patch at the moment. The do-it-yourselfer in me wants to use a small strip of duct tape but I doubt that will hold it from tearing further.

Are there any other ways to stabilize this little tear?

I also thought of wetting it and re-mounting to its hoop, hoping that the tear might become further down the line and farther away from the crimp/fold. But I'm really not sure. 

Culloden - Posted - 07/29/2022:  11:46:11

Antoine, if you decide to try patching the skin you might send a PM to John Balch and see if he would mail you a small scrap of skin. If anyone has scraps of calfskin, he would.