craan - Posted - 10/02/2024:  05:08:42

I purchased a Bart Reiter Grand Concery Banjo on line. And unfortunately it came with a rather high action as compared to a previous Bart Reiter I already owned. I substituted a 9/16 th" bridge as the 5/8th bridge knocked it up too high. but still inserting a business card at the 12 th fret left too much room with a 9/16th bridge.
However when I placed a capo on the first fret and pressed on the last fret the space on the first string fractionally raised between the 5th to 6th fret and decreases between the seventh to last fret. The bow is there beginning at the 5th fret but it is not pronounced. However it's distance from the 5th-6th fret is way greater than in my Reiter Whyte Laydie with the same test. On that banjo which has no buzzing the interval between string and fret is almost indecernable. So do I need a neck reset on how is that done with the Bart Reiter dowel stick???. In NYC most of the reputable luthiers repair persons work on guitars with some banjo experience. So I am nervous about giving the BR to them and I am loath to ship it off out of town. The instrument is playable now and I am adapting to the action and the wider neck but it is not comparable to the other Reiter banjo which is utterly fluid action wise. What would account for the difference in neck now from the same luthier between two of their top end banjos?
The Grand concert had no discernible fret wear and is in almost mint condition made in 1990 while the lower action BR is1994.

MatthewH - Posted - 10/02/2024:  05:22:56

First, I'd try less relief in the neck. If that didn't get it, maybe a 1/2" bridge before sending off for a reset.

craan - Posted - 10/02/2024:  05:33:47

Thanks for the reply. I did try a 1/2 inch Grover bridge but it was too low for thumb accuracy as I play clawhammer and my thumb collided with the neck with the lower bridge and this banjo does not have a frailing scoop. I also felt the banjo lost tone and punch somewhat with the lower bridge. Either way with the1/2 inch or 9/16th bridge It will take time to adapt may left hand or my right hand respectively to this banjo but the difference in tone is between the bridges is also a important factor for me. I am progressively coping with the action but when I play the same tune on the lower action Reiter the difference in technical fluidity is marked and depressing at the same time.

craan - Posted - 10/02/2024:  05:36:13

quote:

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Originally posted by craan

I purchased a Bart Reiter Grand Concert Banjo on line. And unfortunately it came with a rather high action as compared to a previous Bart Reiter I already owned. I substituted a 9/16 th" bridge as the 5/8th bridge knocked it up too high. but still inserting a business card at the 12 th fret left too much room with a 9/16th bridge.

However when I placed a capo on the first fret and pressed on the last fret the space on the first string fractionally raised between the 5th to 6th fret and decreases between the seventh to last fret. The bow is there beginning at the 5th fret but it is not pronounced. However it's distance from the 5th-6th fret is way greater than in my Reiter Whyte Laydie with the same test. On that banjo which has no buzzing the interval between string and fret is almost indecernable. So do I need a neck reset on how is that done with the Bart Reiter dowel stick???. In NYC most of the reputable luthiers repair persons work on guitars with some banjo experience. So I am nervous about giving the BR to them and I am loath to ship it off out of town. The instrument is playable now and I am adapting to the action and the wider neck but it is not comparable to the other Reiter banjo which is utterly fluid action wise. What would account for the difference in neck now from the same luthier between two of their top end banjos?

The Grand concert had no discernible fret wear and is in almost mint condition made in 1990 while the lower action BR is1994.

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dpgetman - Posted - 10/02/2024:  06:32:33

I agree with MatthewH , have you tried adjusting the truss rod to level out some of the bow it sounds like you have in the neck?

craan - Posted - 10/02/2024:  06:44:38

Bart Reiter banjos are not equipped with the dual rods and access to the truss rod through a peg head slot. I have been told to adjust the truss rod the neck has to be removed from the pot which is beyond my technical skill set.

Eulalie - Posted - 10/02/2024:  07:06:42

quote:

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Originally posted by craan

Bart Reiter banjos are not equipped with the dual rods and access to the truss rod through a peg head slot. I have been told to adjust the truss rod the neck has to be removed from the pot which is beyond my technical skill set.

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You will easily find a luthier who can adjust your truss rod.  You probably will not need to alter the neck angle if the neck bow is reduced.

craan - Posted - 10/02/2024:  07:11:09

Eulalie In NYC believe it not there are no luthiers that I could find who have extensive experience with banjos in general and Reiter's instruments in particular. There truss rod adjustment experience is limited to guitars.

hweinberg - Posted - 10/02/2024:  07:53:51

Brooklyn Lutherie can reliably adjust your truss rod or perform any other needed banjo repairs. Owners are former head of repair and repair person from Retrofret, now in business for a decade serving many demanding musicians in NYC (including me). 

Edited by - hweinberg on 10/02/2024 07:57:02

craan - Posted - 10/02/2024:  07:58:47

Many Thanks Howard. I was consdering them but their web site did not say much about working on banjos. I will contact them.

That is good to know! Do you play old-time? Know of any sessions in town?

hweinberg - Posted - 10/02/2024:  10:00:41

replied to your pm

jbalch - Posted - 10/02/2024:  13:29:04

As others have said, sounds like it needs a simple truss rod adjustment. I've done it several times on Reiter banjos - is usually no big deal at all.  

Edited by - jbalch on 10/02/2024 13:30:18

mallery - Posted - 10/02/2024:  14:33:02

I love how everyone here gives such great advice.

Certainly the truss rod could need adjustment and if it is an older instrument then there is no telling if a prior owner had adjusted it thinking this was the way to get higher action. Usually a small degree of relief is good particularly if you’re trying to set the action low.

Be sure to check that the heel is completely flush with the rim and that the dowel stick brace is securely tightened. There should be no space between the base of the heel and the rim.

Also check that the tension hoop isn’t touching the base of the heel. If it is it could be holding the heel lower than it should. The upper surface of the dowel should be resting against the wood of the opening in the rim.

Playability is also affected by head tension and could feel dead if too lose or choked if too tight.

Good luck!

craan - Posted - 10/02/2024:  15:23:03

thanks I wil post some photos. I am unclear by what you mean by the tension hoop is too close to the heel-the top tension hood for the skin?

craan - Posted - 10/02/2024:  15:30:11

quote:

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John ccould you detail what the steps  are for performing t trus rod adjustment on a Reiter Bacon with the internal resonator? 

Much appreciated.

Allen

Originally posted by jbalch

As others have said, sounds like it needs a simple truss rod adjustment. I've done it several times on Reiter banjos - is usually no big deal at all.  

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jbalch - Posted - 10/03/2024:  05:23:40

The truss rod adjustment on a Reiter Banjo is at the heel.  To adjust the rod, you must remove the neck - which is a very simple thing to do. 

On my hide banjo head website, I posted a video showing how to install a new head.  As part of that, I clearly demonstrate how to loosen and remove the neck (around the 2:00 mark).  If you are not changing the head, there is no need to loosen the hooks and nuts as shown in this video. In the video I only loosen the neck.  To remove it completely you just slide the dowel stick out through the hole in the rim. 

Hide Head Installation Video 

One additional tip, to completely remove the neck on a Reiter banjo, it is sometimes necessary to take the nameplate off the dowel stick.  That is because the screw heads may prevent the dowel stick sliding through the hole in the internal resonator rim.  The nameplate is attached with two small screws, just take it off so that the dowel stick will slip all the way out of the rim.  

The truss rod adjustment is accessed at the heel through a small hole just beneath the fingerboard.  You will see it.  Use a 1/4" nut driver to adjust the rod.  To flatten the neck, turn it clockwise in small increments.  In my experience, this is usually a very easy adjustment. It might be slightly stiff initially. But usually turns easily with just a bit of force.  Turning a very small amount (1/8 or 1/4 turn +/-) is usually sufficient. 

Check the neck with a flat ruler to see how much it is moving.  If there is significant relief (bow) you should be able to see the result.

However, in rare cases the nut might be stuck and hard to adjust.  If so, don't force it - you don't want to strip the threads or break the rod.  If the adjustment seems too difficult, you should seek the help of an experienced luthier to avoid damaging the rod.   

When you are done - just reassemble the banjo. 

This is the text from Bart's old website: 

Edited by - jbalch on 10/03/2024 05:34:47

Bart Reiter website truss rod adj. instructions.

 

dbrooks - Posted - 10/03/2024:  07:19:03

John Balch, your detailed instructions will be useful to many of us owners of BART Reiter banjos. Thank you. 

 

David

Edited by - dbrooks on 10/03/2024 07:19:39

craan - Posted - 10/11/2024:  07:42:39

The issue raised here is that adjusting the truss rod is NOT a means to lowering the string height action. So what are the means to lowering the action? On the Bart Reiter in question the string height notably increases starting at the 5th -7th fret which indicates a pronounced neck bow . I use a 9/16th bridge. A 1/2 " bridge produces a buzz in the second fret. On another Reiter I own with a 5/8" bridge the action is significantly lower and very playable. Shaving the bridge feet in my estimate would not significantly lower the action of the Grand Concert in question. The 9/16th " bridge I use is a Bart Veerman bridge which is quite thin made of some tropical dark wood. The tail piece of the banjo is slightly angled with one side in contact with head and the other side slightly above the head. Is that contributing to the high action? The head is quite tight.

Eulalie - Posted - 10/11/2024:  08:25:41

quote:

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Originally posted by craan

The issue raised here is that adjusting the truss rod is NOT a means to lowering the string height action. So what are the means to lowering the action? On the Bart Reiter in question the string height notably increases starting at the 5th -7th fret which indicates a pronounced neck bow . I use a 9/16th bridge. A 1/2 " bridge produces a buzz in the second fret. On another Reiter I own with a 5/8" bridge the action is significantly lower and very playable. Shaving the bridge feet in my estimate would not significantly lower the action of the Grand Concert in question. The 9/16th " bridge I use is a Bart Veerman bridge which is quite thin made of some tropical dark wood. The tail piece of the banjo is slightly angled with one side in contact with head and the other side slightly above the head. Is that contributing to the high action? The head is quite tight.

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It seems that the comments so far have not stated explicitly that adjusting the truss rod in fact will lower the string height.  From your description, the string height increases at the fifth to seventh fret—this indicates excessive banjo neck relief.  The way to tell if your banjo neck is straight or bowed is to lay (the narrow) edge of a 30" ruler or other straight edge on top of the frets from the first fret to where the neck meets the rim.  If there is a measurable gap along that span, there is too much neck relief.  The truss rod adjustment will ultimately lower the string action by flattening the bow in the area between the fifth and seventh frets.  Give it a try.

jbalch - Posted - 10/11/2024:  10:31:48

quote:

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Originally posted by Eulalie

quote:

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Originally posted by craan

The issue raised here is that adjusting the truss rod is NOT a means to lowering the string height action. So what are the means to lowering the action? On the Bart Reiter in question the string height notably increases starting at the 5th -7th fret which indicates a pronounced neck bow . I use a 9/16th bridge. A 1/2 " bridge produces a buzz in the second fret. On another Reiter I own with a 5/8" bridge the action is significantly lower and very playable. Shaving the bridge feet in my estimate would not significantly lower the action of the Grand Concert in question. The 9/16th " bridge I use is a Bart Veerman bridge which is quite thin made of some tropical dark wood. The tail piece of the banjo is slightly angled with one side in contact with head and the other side slightly above the head. Is that contributing to the high action? The head is quite tight.

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It seems that the comments so far have not stated explicitly that adjusting the truss rod in fact will lower the string height.  From your description, the string height increases at the fifth to seventh fret—this indicates excessive banjo neck relief.  The way to tell if your banjo neck is straight or bowed is to lay (the narrow) edge of a 30" ruler or other straight edge on top of the frets from the first fret to where the neck meets the rim.  If there is a measurable gap along that span, there is too much neck relief.  The truss rod adjustment will ultimately lower the string action by flattening the bow in the area between the fifth and seventh frets.  Give it a try.

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Well -said!   

I think Bart's instructions were worded to indicate that a truss rod adjustment doesn't change the neck angle - and doesn't lower the action in that way. 

BUT if the neck is bowed (too much relief), flattening it with a truss rod adjustment can definitely help correct the action - in the affected area. 

craan - Posted - 10/11/2024:  11:06:04

Many thanks for the clarification.

craan - Posted - 10/11/2024:  11:07:38

Thanks all for your impressive expertise!

craan - Posted - 10/11/2024:  11:08:47

However, just curious what other strategies are used to lower action beyond a lower bridge or shaving the feet of an existing bridge?