Mark Douglas - Posted - 12/02/2025:  10:55:07

I'll look again.

Thanks.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 12/02/2025:  14:07:08

Okay, we're about one more post from a lock. If we can't discuss the subject and discuss it as adults, then we need to shut the whole topic down.

Don Borchelt - Posted - 12/02/2025:  19:22:07

quote:

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Originally posted by KCJones

A generous view would be that Rhiannon Giddens (along with Jake Blount) produces fictional entertainment masquerading as historical research. A less generous view would be that they're racists that promote anachronistic revisionist history to support their worldview.



Her music is good; she's a great musician. She should stick to playing music and leave the history to historians.

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The second sentence is the one that introduced the word "racist" in this discussion.  It deserved the criticism it received.

Mark Douglas - Posted - 12/03/2025:  04:40:38

quote:

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Originally posted by Don Borchelt

quote:

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Originally posted by KCJones

A generous view would be that Rhiannon Giddens (along with Jake Blount) produces fictional entertainment masquerading as historical research. A less generous view would be that they're racists that promote anachronistic revisionist history to support their worldview.



Her music is good; she's a great musician. She should stick to playing music and leave the history to historians.

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The second sentence is the one that introduced the word "racist" in this discussion.  It deserved the criticism it received.

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That's a matter of interpretation. Why did it deserve criticism?

From one of her own interviews...

Giddens is quoted as saying:

"We're all racist to some degree."

KCJones - Posted - 12/03/2025:  05:02:11

quote:

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Originally posted by writerrad

Emmett could not have possibly stolen that from the Snowdens whose lives were an example of how Emmetts "Dixie" was a lie.

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Mr. Thomas, I'm glad that we have, at the very least, been able to come to an agreement that the Dixie/Snowden myth perpetuated by this book is, indeed, a lie. Or perhaps not a lie, but at best a falsehood and example of revisionist history. 

To anyone else, I'll say this. Why Giddens chose to perpetuate this myth in her book is a mystery that I don't think any of us can truly solve. I made no arguments guessing at why they included this false revisionist history in their book, or state my personal opinion regarding their motivations. I simply offered two possible explanations. There could certainly be other explanations, as has been elucidated in this thread by much smarter and more educated people than me. 

Edited by - KCJones on 12/03/2025 05:17:39

writerrad - Posted - 12/03/2025:  06:24:54

You really dont understand the discussion whatsoever.

Dixie as a song in the actual circumstances that Emmett wrote it for a Blackface minstrel show in New York City of which he was musical director and band leader, is a song about how Black people are not suited for freedom. The peerformance setting of the song is of an escaped slave who has reached the North, regretting his choice of escaping slavery and wishing he could return to being enslaved. This was a frequent approach for songs written for the minstrel stage like Foster's "The Old Folks at Home."

The Snowdens who celebrated their freedom, and knew too much about the barbarity of slavery to wish such things or performs such things did not write such a song. The success of "Dixie" and its adoption by the racist slaveholders and traitors and enemies of Democracy who tried to overthrow the government to defend slavery is the opposite of what the Snowdens stood for and celebrated. They could not have written a song such as that.

Have you read the Sacks book or read any literature about this which you must NOT have. Nor have you read Rhiannon and Kristina's book. You don't even know who Kristina is.

Anyone who can read music can see the similarities between the song the Sacks point to as prefiguring "Dixie" and "Dixie." On the other hand, I think concepts of authorship in the 1830s or 1840s in all genre, but especially popular music, and especially by commercial writers of show music and entertainment music like Daniel Emmett.

About 30 years ago I had the pleasure of visiting a major scholar of the banjo and music who had embarked on a study of Emmett's musical background which he unfortunately did not complete due to other demands before age and illness removed him from active scholarship. He had obtained photocopies of Emmett's "book", that is to say Emmett's collection of musical manuscripts and song copies, all in standard notation, only a few out scores with any names,. What he said was interesting about so many of these scores was that so many tended to be harmonically and rhythmically paralleling Black music with several being variants of tunes no one would dispute are of African American origin. Many had to be either transcriptions of Black performance, most on fiddle with some perhaps on banjo.

Emmett, and for that matter most of his peers in creating songs and performance for the racist Blackface minstrels, did not deny the music that they created originated with African Americans. Indeed they made ridiculous claims that they had learned tunes and songs they had written themselves and were clearly NOT from any kind of African American musical tradition from Black people.

Mark Douglas - Posted - 12/03/2025:  11:24:28

quote:

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Originally posted by writerrad

You really dont understand the discussion whatsoever.





 

---

Sir,

I think the assumptions and criticisms of KCJones are unfair and uncalled for. He has presented his viewpoint in a respectful and honest manner. Why all the uproar?

Stating that someone does not understand the discussion is presumptuous and unwarranted!

I may not completely agree with his assertions....but he does have a valid point!

Mark Douglas - Posted - 12/03/2025:  11:25:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by writerrad

You really dont understand the discussion whatsoever.



Dixie as a song in the actual circumstances that Emmett wrote it for a Blackface minstrel show in New York City of which he was musical director and band leader, is a song about how Black people are not suited for freedom. The peerformance setting of the song is of an escaped slave who has reached the North, regretting his choice of escaping slavery and wishing he could return to being enslaved. This was a frequent approach for songs written for the minstrel stage like Foster's "The Old Folks at Home."



The Snowdens who celebrated their freedom, and knew too much about the barbarity of slavery to wish such things or performs such things did not write such a song. The success of "Dixie" and its adoption by the racist slaveholders and traitors and enemies of Democracy who tried to overthrow the government to defend slavery is the opposite of what the Snowdens stood for and celebrated. They could not have written a song such as that.



Have you read the Sacks book or read any literature about this which you must NOT have. Nor have you read Rhiannon and Kristina's book. You don't even know who Kristina is.



Anyone who can read music can see the similarities between the song the Sacks point to as prefiguring "Dixie" and "Dixie." On the other hand, I think concepts of authorship in the 1830s or 1840s in all genre, but especially popular music, and especially by commercial writers of show music and entertainment music like Daniel Emmett.



About 30 years ago I had the pleasure of visiting a major scholar of the banjo and music who had embarked on a study of Emmett's musical background which he unfortunately did not complete due to other demands before age and illness removed him from active scholarship. He had obtained photocopies of Emmett's "book", that is to say Emmett's collection of musical manuscripts and song copies, all in standard notation, only a few out scores with any names,. What he said was interesting about so many of these scores was that so many tended to be harmonically and rhythmically paralleling Black music with several being variants of tunes no one would dispute are of African American origin. Many had to be either transcriptions of Black performance, most on fiddle with some perhaps on banjo.



Emmett, and for that matter most of his peers in creating songs and performance for the racist Blackface minstrels, did not deny the music that they created originated with African Americans. Indeed they made ridiculous claims that they had learned tunes and songs they had written themselves and were clearly NOT from any kind of African American musical tradition from Black people.

---

I have studied history enough to know that nothing written in the 19th century is clear and concise. 

Edited by - Mark Douglas on 12/03/2025 11:28:54

writerrad - Posted - 12/03/2025:  14:20:58

quote:

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The section of Twain's Huck Finn where Huck and Jim run into these traveling actors and shysters claiming to be the True Dauphine of France and so on about describes what might be happening in those days.  One of my focuses for a while was minstrel and banjo in Australia in the 50s and 60s, and already there are people coming from the US or England claiming to be name stars in England or the US who one can document are performing in England or the US the same night, but who is to know in a world without the kind of communications we have now.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 12/05/2025:  05:31:45

quote:

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Originally posted by chuckv97

@Joel Hooks,, I’m curious to know why it’s so important for banjo players to know how to read standard notation? I understand why RG thought it might be insulting to many traditional banjoists.

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RG, despite what she might claim, has put herself in a position of authority on banjo history.

Would you ask me this same question if I recommended that a historian of Mexican history learn to read Spanish?



Specifically, I made the comment on a post RG made about her working on early banjo music with an image of tab.  I commented that she should use her influence to promote musical literacy.  How insulting of me to promote learning and education!



Also, there is nearly 50 years of recorded music for banjo that predates audio recording. Why would someone studying the history of the banjo ignore that huge volume of information?

Also, it is easy, it is often taught (or at least used to be) in elementary school. 

banjowannabe - Posted - 12/05/2025:  06:06:53

I suspect that even if we could all watch history in real time, we would all have different interpretations of what we just saw. It's very difficult to extract motivation from an action or series of actions. Rhiannon was a guest artist at U of Michigan Clements Library (original source material) over the summer doing research. I heard her speak and was suspicious that I could detect some bias (wearing my psychologist hat). Her formal training is as a musician - opera major at Oberlin, so you don't know if she's had good training in minimizing bias. She ended her lecture/performance by saying that the world would be a better place if everybody just stoped what they were doing and picked up either a fiddle or a banjo. I had to agree with that.

writerrad - Posted - 12/25/2025:  07:16:14

quote:I do not understand KC Jones. 

He seems to live in a land of make believe.  Scholars and universities and researchers of the banjo who dedicate their lives to getting the facts of the banjo together consider Rhiannon who holds a double degree from the Oberlin Conservatory, one in voice, and one in classical violin performance, to be a major contributor to the research on the origin of the banjo over the past 20 years that she hs been involved.  I certainly have learned a lot from her in the 21 or 22 years I have known her.  She has spent a lot of her own money supporting initiatives about banjo research in this country, in Ireland where she now lives, and elsewhere. '  What are your credentials.

What exactly have you done but insult people you seem to know nothing about on this issue that you seem to know nothing about and contribute nothng.  What information have you discovered about early banjo playing?

Brown University, quietly a place where crucial work on roots music and banjo and fiddling has been done by the great Jeff Todd Titon, has admitted Jake Blount as a candidate for a masters and doctoral degree in ethnomusicology.

What exactly are your credentials in serious documented research of the banjo and its history?   What do you do other than make insults that illustrate your ignorance?

Edited by - writerrad on 12/25/2025 07:18:45

KCJones - Posted - 12/25/2025:  09:20:17

writerrad Why do you continue to quote/tag me in this thread and make these rude personal remarks about me? The most recent post on this thread was nearly 3 weeks ago, and you've somehow decided that today, on Christmas day, you needed to come here and slanderize me once more.

You are embarrassing yourself. 



I've already blocked you on email because of your harassment. I cannot block you on banjohangout, so whenever you quote/tag me it bypasses my email block. Because of this, I will ask now, please refrain from quoting/tagging me in the future. I do not want to interact with you any further, I've made that clear once already in private and I'm now restating it in public. Leave me alone and find someone else to harass.

Merry Christmas to everyone else.

Edited by - KCJones on 12/25/2025 09:22:58

Mickhammer - Posted - 12/25/2025:  13:30:46

quote:

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Originally posted by Joel Hooks

quote:

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Originally posted by chuckv97

@Joel Hooks,, I’m curious to know why it’s so important for banjo players to know how to read standard notation? I understand why RG thought it might be insulting to many traditional banjoists.

---

RG, despite what she might claim, has put herself in a position of authority on banjo history.

Would you ask me this same question if I recommended that a historian of Mexican history learn to read Spanish?

 

---

The analogy would be more like insisting a native of Barcelona speak Spanish instead of Catalan.

I disagree that musical notation is a necessity for playing banjo - or most stringed instruments, for that matter. Musical notation has its place, certainly. But it's not nearly as well adapted to stringed and fretted instruments. Tab recognizes the particularities of these instruments, and makes the music visible in a real and direct fashion, and to a broader audience, than musical notation can ever achieve. 

And given that most of these early musicians were not only deprived of any kind of education, but of their basic freedom, it seems disingenuous to suggest that they should have been using notation, or that anyone must use musical notation - and entirely foreign language - to represent them.

I did learn notation early on. I found it entirely useless.

Mickhammer - Posted - 12/25/2025:  13:36:38

quote:That's a matter of interpretation. Why did it deserve criticism?



 

Because it smacks of the nonsense grievance that somehow whites in America have received the short end of the stick?

Joel Hooks - Posted - 12/25/2025:  14:06:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mickhammer

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckv97

@Joel Hooks,, I’m curious to know why it’s so important for banjo players to know how to read standard notation? I understand why RG thought it might be insulting to many traditional banjoists.

---

RG, despite what she might claim, has put herself in a position of authority on banjo history.

Would you ask me this same question if I recommended that a historian of Mexican history learn to read Spanish?

 

---

The analogy would be more like insisting a native of Barcelona speak Spanish instead of Catalan.

I disagree that musical notation is a necessity for playing banjo - or most stringed instruments, for that matter. Musical notation has its place, certainly. But it's not nearly as well adapted to stringed and fretted instruments. Tab recognizes the particularities of these instruments, and makes the music visible in a real and direct fashion, and to a broader audience, than musical notation can ever achieve. 

And given that most of these early musicians were not only deprived of any kind of education, but of their basic freedom, it seems disingenuous to suggest that they should have been using notation, or that anyone must use musical notation - and entirely foreign language - to represent them.

I did learn notation early on. I found it entirely useless.

 

 

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Thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of pieces of music were published for banjo in notation from 1855 until the folk era (and even after).

That is the recorded language of banjo before sound recording and was the way amateurs and professionals recorded banjo music... writing it in notation.

A banjo historian that plays banjo should be able to read the language that was used by the very people they are studying.

Also it is very easy, choose one of the hundreds of  banjo instruction books and read the instructions.  That is all there is to it.  That and practice.