reubenstump - Posted - 12/08/2025:  11:37:44

I'm not sure where I should post this topic, but this question isn't very germane to bluegrass/Scruggs/three finger, so I'll start here and the mods can move it if they see fit to do so.

I play two finger - TFTL. I occasionally try to play some clawhammer, but only the basic technique, no actual songs. But it's on my radar to learn someday, as another old time technique.

Irrespective of TF or clawhammer, how much of a playing difference is there, in technique, migration, etc., from fretted to fretless? Am I likely to produce a Hell's worth of sour notes, at least to start? If so, will anyone other than other musicians notice? Does consistency of scale (25.5, 26.25, etc.) matter? I don't have large hands or long fingers, so 25.5" might be better for me in any case.

Thanks.

Jon Borcherding - Posted - 12/08/2025:  11:51:28

This might help.

youtube.com/watch?v=tkjBWcPjcCo

Tom Collins does a deep dive on this subject. It is helping me as I am trying to learn fretless right now.

pinenut - Posted - 12/08/2025:  11:54:26

Fretless is okay, use slides instead of hammer-ons and chords are not the best option.

Let your fingers follow what you expect to hear and where they expect to be. 

Banjos are typically tuned to the key of the tune; as long as your fingers are sorta-close sour notes are not super common, so, just a little rubber-bandjo fun.

Definitely, try before you buy.

Edited by - pinenut on 12/08/2025 11:56:14

Culloden - Posted - 12/08/2025:  14:05:37

Are you likely to produce a bunch of sour notes? Not as much as you might think.
I play three finger style, but I dabble around with a few other styles. A few years ago, I built a cheap fretless banjo with a hand drum, some fiddle pegs, and lumber from Home Depot. I found it pretty easy to slide into the notes if you fall short. I had a blast playing around with it but, unfortunately, it sold before I could really get used to it.
One other thing, the scale length is not as rigid as it is on a banjo with frets. You can use whatever scale suits you best.

writerrad - Posted - 12/08/2025:  18:11:52

My experience is if you know how to play fairly well, especially if you have played other instruments with a neck,  it is not as much different as you imagine it to be.  fretting a banjo or if you have played the guitar or the mandolin or the fiddle or some other instrument with strings and a neckm whether it has frets or not, teaches your brain, nerves and muscles the actual physical relationship and distances that create different notes on a lute (an instrument with strings and a neck).   Those distances are objective and based on physics or whater.   

That is not the hardest part of playing a fretless.   BTW  ALL BANJOS EXCEPT A FEW WEIRD ODD BALLS THAT CAME OUT IN THE 1850S,  ALL BANJOS HAD NO FRETS UNTIL THE 1870S,  This was true for home made banjos and fancy banjos made by the best luthiers imaginqable in New York, Boston, and London,  

Frets started out like trainer wheels, a few banjos were made where position markers were printed on the neck before frets,'

Frets coming to banjos also had to do with the instrument becoming more popular and makers competing with the mandolin which was more popular in the late 19th century than you would think, and the guitar,

On the other hand, especially playing up the neck,  on a fretless banjo no matter of what quality you will need to get to learn about the most miner imperfections and features of your neck,

good luck

Edited by - writerrad on 12/08/2025 18:17:05

banjoboyd - Posted - 12/08/2025:  19:40:19

I think the migration is less about technique (in terms of putting your fingers in roughly the right places) and more about musical approach. And really the only way to figure that out is just to do it. 

Dan Gellert - Posted - 12/09/2025:  10:47:13

Listen to the real old-time players. Fretted or fretless, rapping or 2-finger. Most of them stuck to notes and riffs that obviously originated on homemade fretless banjos.
Like Stringbean said, "Ain't no money past the 5th fret."

Wade Ward could chord all over the fingerboard, and had his few fancy pieces, but listen to how he played stuff like Johnson Boys, Holly Ding, and John Lover's Gone-- seldom, if ever, moved out of "first position" on those, and rarely fingered more than one string at a time.

Basic positioning (just a bit over-simplified): Think of where your index finger is, and the other fingers handle the next two fret positions up from there. If you can get that happening on the first 5 frets, you've got nearly all the fingering chops necessary for traditional-style playing. Very few tunes require more than two of those positions, and nearly all are limited to just a couple of simple fingering patterns in each.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 12/09/2025:  14:22:31

When John Bowlin made a custom fretless banjo for me (the prototype for what became his Model 1865 Fretless Banjo) we scaled it so that the notes naturally fell under my fingers, which turned out to be 24".  If you are having a fretless made, or have a selection of different scale lengths to choose from, you might approach it that way.

I would heartily recommend the use of an electronic tuner so as to insure a consistent location of note positions.

The other thing I learned is that there is a "muscle memory" factor for each individual tune as the stretches between the notes vary with each tune.

Sounds more difficult than it is.  You'll find that you'll soon be able to play the vast majority of notes in tune.

Like Mel Gibson said in "The Patriot": "Aim small, miss small".

There are great Minstrel and Classical players who play all over the fingerboard, but my style and repertoire rarely requires playing above the fifth fret, with the exception of 7th fret on first string.  Traditional CH.

As far as technique, I often substitute a micro-slide for a choke.

There was a Bowlin Fretless for sale in the BHO classifieds a short time ago- it may still be there if you're interested.  They were designed to be tuned down to the Briggs 1855 standard using heavy gauge strings, although I have occasionally tuned mine standard with lighter strings. Proceed at your risk.  

reubenstump - Posted - 12/10/2025:  06:19:53

Thanks for the replies. Maybe not as hard as I feared.

The Bowlin is gone, but there are two others in the classifieds. A Reiter, but it's in europe, and who knows what tariffs might do to the cost? A Calkins Ohioan, which looks interesting. I don't see much about him, but what I do find is positive. The Ohionan is brand new, so full price, but I can keep an eye out for something used. The dowel stick is interesting. Not sure what the idea is behind that design. And I'd probably skip any sort of metal tone ring and go with a wooden tone ring or none at all.

banjohangout.org/classified/113013

Noah Cline - Posted - 12/10/2025:  11:07:05

As has been mentioned above, muscle memory does play a big role going from fretted to fretless. I've recommended to people when ordering their first fretless to get one that has a similar or the same scale length as their main fretted player (sometimes going with a shorter scale length for the fretless helps, too, as RD mentioned), for muscle memory's sake. Also, side dots on a fully fretless fingerboard help for visual indicators -- I usually skip frets, positioning them at 1,3,5,7,10, and 12, sometimes 15 -- otherwise, a dot at every fret seems a bit busy to me. Other land marks, like the fifth string pip, 5th string shoulder cutouts (think Boucher double-ogee cutouts) help for visual indicators, as long as the scale length and bridge are positioned to correlate with them.

Mainly, let your ears guide your fingers to get the notes -- micro tones or blue notes are just a charm of fretless instruments. 

Flush frets are a "best of both" scenario. 

Edited by - Noah Cline on 12/10/2025 11:12:42

OK-4 - Posted - 12/10/2025:  21:54:29

I enjoy playing fretless, but my repertoire is different on a fretless than on a fretted banjo. If you play melodic clawhammer pieces, you will probably be frustrated trying to play the same tunes on a fretless. I don't need much more than my middle finger for "fretting" when I go through my relatively small fretless repertoire.

A good start would be to study Fred Cockerham's playing. There are several nice examples on the Southern Clawhammer Banjo album (Kicking Mule label), if you can still get it, and you should be able to find tablature for them. Cockerham's tunes on that album are all in G tuning. He got a lot of mileage out of slides on the second string (from approximately 1st to 3rd "fret"), and probably never a note higher than the fifth fret. His version of Pretty Polly is a gem.

Paul R - Posted - 12/11/2025:  10:57:46

More from Tom Collins, posted in '07:

youtube.com/watch?v=hzmbUg_z4Tg

youtube.com/watch?v=9q57nneE88Y

youtube.com/watch?v=QgCCjhaWT_E

This is his series on Round Peak banjo, all done on fretless.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 12/12/2025:  23:23:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by reubenstump

Thanks for the replies. Maybe not as hard as I feared.



The Bowlin is gone...

---

Fretless banjoes regularly come and go in the Classifieds.  A little patience will be rewarded.

You can move the bridge to adjust the scale length if you like.  Noah (who is a massive fretless {and fretted} virtuoso) brought up an important point for your consideration:

Other land marks, like the fifth string pip, 5th string shoulder cutouts (think Boucher double-ogee cutouts) help for visual indicators, as long as the scale length and bridge are positioned to correlate with them.

reubenstump - Posted - 12/13/2025:  02:17:47

Thanks.



I'm thinking 25.5" (medium hands, medium length fingers), with side dots as Noah mentioned. I'd probably have them put at the normal fretted positions (between frets) rather than where the actual frets would be, but don't know if there's a consensus on that.



Tone ring is a rabbit hole, but I'll like go for some sort of wood or none at all. Maybe. Could be some metal. Hard to say.



I'll keep a look out. I have plenty of playing improvement I can work on in the meantime.  

reubenstump - Posted - 12/15/2025:  12:11:44

Background:



1) I'm a beginning/intermediate TFTL player.



2) I also love clawhammer and Round Peak (a variation of clawhammer), and I kind of aspire to playing one or more of those techniques someday.



3) I'm not looking for a great banjo, but beginner/intermediate to go along with my current proficiency.  While a lot of banjos can be used for more than one technique, I don't see that as applicable to the fretted/fretless divide.  It either has frets or it doesn't.  It's not like changing strings, head, bridge, or tailpiece.

4) I'd rather not have a scoop, but could be talked into one.



Questions:



1) New or used openback suggestions for the above that are somewhat readily available? I'm not in a rush, so I can wait.  I stumbled across Nate Calkins, and they look good, but I don't really know anything about either him or his banjos.



2) Tone ring. This is a biggie. None, wooden, rolled brass rod, other?

Anything else I'm missing.

Thanks.

twelvefret - Posted - 12/27/2025:  13:53:02

My first open back was a S. Korean made Recording King. I changed up the head and experimented with various bridges. When I asked Noel Booth to build a fretless, I did not have a difficult time transitioning. The scoop is nice if your right hand is played over the neck.

Have you considered a gourd. They can sound amazing. youtube.com/watch?v=HuMIh1-_yiM

I just noticed this maker, and she grows the gourds she uses to build banjos. ellisbanjo.com/

reubenstump - Posted - 12/27/2025:  15:26:32

She posted here recently, but I'm not interested in gourds or tackheads.

banjobard - Posted - 01/10/2026:  09:27:26

If you’re just looking to get your feet wet in fretless world, and not spend a lot of money, one solution could be to get a cheap fretted banjo, and pull the frets out or plane them to be level with the board. If you want a scoop you can add it at the same time by removing material from that part of the neck.

That was a reasonably common practice in the old days and I know great players who have done it in the modern era. One advantage is that it leaves all the lines of the frets so that you can see where the notes are. If you have pulled out the frets and you don’t want the little holes, you could always fill them with wood inlays. I believe gold tone offers a fretless banjo that has wood fret inlay markers as well if you don’t want to do the DIY approach. Of course, over time your ear may guide you to find where the actual in-tune notes are, which is not always in the dot that the fret is.

In my experience, Nylgut strings are a great way to get a good fretless sound. It can be done with steel as well but it’s much more critical to have the right sounding pot and playing technique to get a good sound.

I second the advice to use the same scale that you normally play on. Also, place your fingers on where the feet would be, rather than just behind it. Maybe that’s the reason some people like a slightly shorter scale length.

jojo25 - Posted - 01/17/2026:  14:53:49

my 2.59 cents worth:)...I got my first fretless about 20 years ago...but it is a flush fret fretless...i.e. it has maple inlays in the fretboard where the frets are supposed to be...this gives me a visual guide as to the correct finger placement...and it is a blast that I can get fairly accurate notes way up the neck...sumtin rarely done on fretless banjos...but sumtin done on violins much more often...especially in the classical world...the slides on a fretless are SO MUCH FUN!! I still play a fretted banjo...pretty much a 50/50 split...so I can not fully lean on habit/memory to get correct finger placement...as there is a slight difference between where my finger goes on the fretless and where it goes on a fretted banjo for the same note......one thing I have noticed on the fretless...interior pull-ffs...i.e. on the 2nd and 3rd strings...are much more difficult to cleanly do than on a fretted banjo...I think the fret actually provides leverage for the pull-off...and...as mentioned herein...fretting more than one string at a time on a fretless is kinda rare-ish...but 2 at a time can work if the 2 are not immediately adjacent...I oft fret the 1st and 3rd strings together on my fretless...or the 2nd and 4th...otherwise the two fingers get in each others way and at least one of them ends up being off target...as an asisde...I keep my fretless tuned up to double D and I use steel strings...this yields a brighter sound...not as muted as many fretless tend to be

Paul R - Posted - 01/19/2026:  23:50:11

Gold Tone makes a very low cost fretless.

goldtonemusicgroup.com/goldton...iant=1291

Don Borchelt - Posted - 01/22/2026:  10:48:11

reubenstump, you might want to give some thought to trying a semi-fretless, or half fretless banjo. I started using one in 1998, and have never looked back. Basically, it has a brass plate installed over the fingerboard up to the 5th fret. I have seen some banjos where the plate goes to the 7th. You can see some pictures, and a deeper explanation, here:

banjr.com/fretless.htm

RB3 - Posted - 01/23/2026:  10:01:07

Don,

The title of your website reminded me of a story that our old friend, Mack Smith used to tell.

When he was the proprietor of the Famous Old Time Music Co. in Cincinnati, he got a phone call one day from a fellow who had a used banjo he was trying to sell. The fellow said that what he had was a banjo, not a "ban-jer". He explained that a banjo has 4 strings, and a "ban-jer" has 5 strings. Additionally, he pointed out that they're still both spelled the same way: "b-a-n-g-o".

pinenut - Posted - 01/23/2026:  10:05:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by Don Borchelt

reubenstump, you might want to give some thought to trying a semi-fretless, or half fretless banjo. I started using one in 1998, and have never looked back. Basically, it has a brass plate installed over the fingerboard up to the 5th fret. I have seen some banjos where the plate goes to the 7th. You can see some pictures, and a deeper explanation, here:



youtube.com/watch?v=csqi39fXYfI  banjr.com/fretless.htm

---

"The rules" state that you are required to personally wear out those first five frets before you're allowed to install a plate...  

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Question:  Do you ever use a capo on the semi-fretless?  If so, how does it work out?

Edited by - pinenut on 01/23/2026 10:17:09

Don Borchelt - Posted - 01/23/2026:  12:56:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by pinenut --

Question:  Do you ever use a capo on the semi-fretless?  If so, how does it work out?

---

I don't use a capo, though over the years I believe I have seen them.  At all of the jams I go to, the group stays in one key for awhile, so I just retune for that key.  I will sometimes move one string for a particular tune, but I can do that pretty quickly.  My tunings:

D- aDF#AD

G- gDGBD or gDGAD

A- aEAC#E or aEABE

C- gCGCD

Modal

D- aDGAD

G- gDGAD

A- aEABE

C- gCGCD 

Edited by - Don Borchelt on 01/23/2026 12:58:01

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 01/23/2026:  14:16:32

Forgive the thread drift here.

Don, your playing is magnificent- you are truly one of the greats. I really hope that some younger players are cottoning on to your approach.  It certainly needs to be preserved.

Tony Ellis is primarily a three-finger picker who uses alternate tunings.  Beautiful stuff. Check him out.

Don Borchelt - Posted - 01/24/2026:  05:57:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

Forgive the thread drift here.

Don, your playing is magnificent- you are truly one of the greats. I really hope that some younger players are cottoning on to your approach.  It certainly needs to be preserved.

Tony Ellis is primarily a three-finger picker who uses alternate tunings.  Beautiful stuff. Check him out.

---

Thank you, R.D., for the wonderful compliment.  I love Tony's playing.  I have four of his CDs, my favorite is probably his first, Dixie Banner.

cjwit - Posted - 02/14/2026:  14:12:14

I think a lot of folks get nervous about their skills and undervalue the ears that they’ve developed over a lifetime of music listening. It can be slow going making the switch, but if you’re kind to yourself, your ears give you what you need to do it well.

That said, playing up the neck can be a challenge. There’s a reason that it’s not as common in old time fretless playing, as noted earlier.

I can’t recommend a fretless enough, if you’re into that particular sound. It changes how you play. One comment, though: the flush frets can give a false sense of security and make it easier to play with your eyes rather than your ears. It can (not always, of course, hinder the skill development. I like a 5th string peg that’s aligned with the fifth fret, then maybe dots at the normal spots above that: 7, 9 or 10, 12… Perspective means that they’re not exact. You get a sense of how they relate to “in tune” precisely because you have to exercise the ear muscles, if that makes sense.

petemattingly - Posted - 02/15/2026:  15:59:31

Give it a try! But also give it a year before you decide it's not for you. I found the intonation really discouraging at first, almost embarrassing honestly, but eventually it clicked and fretless is so fun (assuming you like that sound, that is).

One exercise I did find helpful for intonation and still do from time to time is playing the harmonized scale up and down the fretboard (I just fret the 1st and 3rd, or 1st and 4th strings, and leave the others open... it's pretty hard to make a closed chord sound good on fretless). It gets crazy up high, but it's only practice, and if you can get decent at finding your pitch at the "12th fret" during an artificial exercise, hitting the 7th fret on the money when it counts isn't so hard. I like to do it as a "skip scale" (e.g. degree 1-3-2-4-3-5-4-6... etc ) if I'm really looking for a challenge.

But mostly, I just play tunes I like.

To be honest, my ears frequently like my intonation better on fretless than frets now, and my fingers sometimes get "annoyed" when I play on frets. One funny side effect is when I (rarely) decide to try to tab something out that I'm learning, I find I have no idea what "frets" I'm playing, and I really have to think about it.

Don Borchelt - Posted - 02/23/2026:  15:11:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by petemattingly

...To be honest, my ears frequently like my intonation better on fretless than frets now, and my fingers sometimes get "annoyed" when I play on frets. One funny side effect is when I (rarely) decide to try to tab something out that I'm learning, I find I have no idea what "frets" I'm playing, and I really have to think about it.

---

That's because your intonation IS better on a fretless.  Allow me to explain.



The basic western seven note scale is based upon a series of mathematical ratios, resulting in what is known as just intonation.  The problem with that "natural scale" is that some of the pitches of the notes will vary slightly depending on the key.  So the absolute pitch of the B note in the key of G will be slightly different than the B note in the key of C.  Back in the 16th Century, when instruments like the harpsichord and piano began to show up, the pitches of the notes were adjusted, compromised it you will, so that they would be the same for every possible key.  This is the modern "tempered scale."  The frets on our modern guitars, banjos, and mandolins are similarly tempered.  When you play on an instrument without frets, you are not forced to play a tempered note, so for example instead of playing a tempered major 3rd, you can play a natural major third.  It sounds more accurate to your ear, because it is.  



Barbershop quartets sing using natural, rather than tempered scales. which is why they almost always perform "a cappella," ie. without accompaniment.  Listen to the amazing sound of the harmonies of the perfomance below.  It would not sound as perfect if they were using a tempered scale.

Edited by - Don Borchelt on 02/23/2026 15:13:53

OldPappy - Posted - 03/12/2026:  17:10:31

Hey Don,

Good to see you out here in BHO land.

Don Borchelt - Posted - 03/12/2026:  18:20:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by OldPappy

Hey Don,



Good to see you out here in BHO land.

---

Good to be here, Andy!  I'm still picking my banjo, but I miss my trips to West Virginia.

OldPappy - Posted - 03/12/2026:  18:34:05

My left arm was giving me so much trouble from our old friend Arthritis I have hardly been able to play a banjo for the last few years.

Fortunately I fell on pavement a year ago February, and shattered what remained of my shoulder joint. I had to sit around with a useless broken left shoulder with chunks of bone floating around in there from February 8th to the middle of June last year before they could find suitable bone to rebuild the bone structure enough to fit me with a replacement joint. Couldn't hardly do a thing requiring two hands for those months.

It was fortunate only in that I am now able to use my arm again, and it feels better than it has for the last 30 years, and I wouldn't have gotten it replaced had I not busted heck out of it.

Started playing again a couple weeks ago. Still have some nerve damage making the little finger of my left hand tingle and its a little numb, so some of those stretches to frets higher than the 5th are a challenge, but I played Kitchen Girl this morning for the first time in years.