Cap - Posted - 01/20/2026:  13:56:36

Do you fit the melody to the roll ? or do you fit the roll to the melody? What was Earl Scruggs approach?

Texasbanjo - Posted - 01/20/2026:  14:05:38

I don't know what Earl's approach was, but....

.... find the melody, be sure each note is in the right measure and on the correct beat and then work partial rolls around it. Occasionally, you may have to move a melody note one note away in order to make the roll correct, but think melody, not roll.

A melody that only consists of rolls is, to me, rather boring so you need to work in slides, hammers, hot licks at the end of a musical phrase. Do something to make it interesting.

pinenut - Posted - 01/20/2026:  14:10:03

I work at 3F, start with the melody and add until it sound like music.  Something that resembles rolls shows up and accompanies the initial melody some of the time.  My current learning path feels to be well trodden even if it isn't in the manuals.

'They' say that Earl initially learned the "old-time" play styles, then developed the chordal roll system that we have today and that he didn't think about his play style as being rolls until working on his book with Bill Keith.  I would 'assume' he started with the melody for most of his early learning and work.  I think most of us work at first learning the melody by listening and Earl was a person just like us.

Edited by - pinenut on 01/20/2026 14:24:09

FenderFred - Posted - 01/20/2026:  14:18:39

quote:

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Originally posted by Cap

Do you fit the melody to the roll ? or do you fit the roll to the melody? *What was Earl Scruggs approach?

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*We would all love to know that! Find the melody, rolls are just fillers. Scruggs Style is built around signature licks.

Bronx banjo - Posted - 01/20/2026:  19:47:44

What made Scruggs’ playing different from his predecessors was his ability to fit his rolls to the melody. Because he used more rolls than other pickers at that time, he was able to achieve a smooth, continuous flow. Fitting the melody to the roll results in a choppy, irregular rhythm which was common among banjo players before Scruggs came along.

If you want to understand Scruggs’s style, get his instruction book and learn his break to Cabin in Caroline. Study it until you can play it without looking at the tab. Compare it to the way Lester Flatt sings the verses. That will demonstrate how well Scruggs is able to a vary his rolls to fit the melody of a song. It’s sometimes referred to as “playing the words” and it’s why he is considered a genius by the countless thousands that have tried to copy his style.

Old Hickory - Posted - 01/20/2026:  20:54:44

Fitting the melody into the roll means you're choosing a picking pattern before you've determined what notes you need and on what strings you're going to get them. Accurately described that way, doesn't it sound cart-before-the-horse backward?

And do you play any songs with just one roll? I don't. Maybe I play rolling backup in some songs with just one pattern, but that's for effect, not melody. And I think rare.

When I'm working out a lead/solo arrangement, I start with the melody. That's the song, right? I figure out where best (for me and the sound I want)  to get the melody notes, how many of them I need, which I can drop, and what notes I can most easily and effectively put between them. That ends up determining the roll. Most of my arrangements use multiple rolls depending on the music I want to make at any one time. One measure might have one roll the next measure another. Or one measure may use patterns that aren't typical rolls as a transition from section or phrase or another.

About the only time I'd expect to see a melody fit into a roll would be in a teaching exercise to demonstrate it can be done and to reinforce the roll pattern as something the learner is supposed to know.

I'm not necessarily right.

eagleisland - Posted - 01/21/2026:  04:17:57

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

(snip)

I'm not necessarily right.

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Perhaps not, but I think you're pretty darned close.

Roll patterns are artificial constructs that, as noted, Earl didn't think of when he was developing his style. He was melody-first. He didn't even think about roll patterns until Bill Keith noticed that he used certain right-hand moves a lot and codified them. Result? What I call "roll dogma." Since Earl's book first came out, many subsequent learning methods have assumed that roll patterns are the essential first step. Patterns can be useful in developing dexterity and familiarization, but they are NOT music. I believe it was Jens Kruger who said something along the lines of "Practicing rolls can be really good if your goal is to be great at practicing rolls."

As others have said: find the melody. Then figure out what works to fill in between the melody notes.

Edited by - eagleisland on 01/21/2026 04:18:49

BobbyE - Posted - 01/21/2026:  06:20:18

Any particular roll pattern is such because it allows the player to play the melody note at its proper place within the melody line; or as close as is possible given the nature of bluegrass music.



Bobby

Edited by - BobbyE on 01/21/2026 06:21:30

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 01/21/2026:  06:55:43

As usual, I'm agreeing with Ken and Skip. But let me add something about licks. Many--most?--licks are banjo ways to represent basic melodic ideas. For example, the "Cripple Creek" lick--TITM with a 2-3 slide on the G string--is a bluegrass banjo way to represent the note B for one beat. (I'd give a few more examples, but they're not easy to express clearly and concisely in writing.) When you learn a lick, ask yourself what essential point it's trying to make.

steve davis - Posted - 01/21/2026:  10:36:35

I think the melodic (Keith) style came into use because of its ability to better represent the melody within rolls.

chuckv97 - Posted - 01/21/2026:  11:12:03

Melodic style is great if you want to play a fiddle tune, likely using the same notes that the fiddle, mandolin, & guitar have just played. Trouble is, and I’ve uttered this “blasphemy” before, it hardly uses any wonderful techniques of string instrument playing like slides, hammer-ons, and pulloffs; it’s usually just straight-on notes, catchy as they might sound at first. I remember being floored by Bill Keith’s rendition of “New Camptown Races” which relied more on a Scruggs-Ian approach with chord shapes than a purely melodic style.

Because I’ve been either lazy or not inspired enough to work on melodic style much I play a lot of fiddle tunes Scruggs style, as Earl did with Soldier’s Joy, Sally Ann, Sally Goodwin, Cumberland Gap, and others, although lacking his great banjo insight.  One can avoid repeating what’s already been played by the other instruments and offer a banjoistic variation of the tune.

(IANOTAgree, as per Tom E)

Edited by - chuckv97 on 01/21/2026 11:13:30

Old Hickory - Posted - 01/21/2026:  11:28:54

And I'm agreeing with IRA.

I came back to say something along those lines, which is: what I do when I'm improvising a solo lead break is not necessarily the same as the composing method of melody first then let rolls come from the best sounding or easiest attainable notes in-between.

When improvising, you don't have time for that. You don't have time for all the individual choices of notes and locations. So if you choose anything, it's larger patterns with placement of melody notes where instinct says they might be. Instead of melody or roll first, improvising is sort of both at once.

There are too many different ways to do it, but one technique I use sometimes is to try to play a literal melody on the second string, maybe with the open first as a drone. This almost dictates forward roll or Foggy Mountain Breakdown Roll. So am I making the melody fit the roll? I don't think so. I'm playing the melody in a way that experience tells me works for some songs. I don't do it this way all the time. When it works, it's pretty effective at expressing melody in a bluegrassy banjoistic way.



Here I am using it for my solo on the chorus form of Walk Away Renée. My solo is at 1:28. I hit the same wrong note two lines in a row. Only missed by one fret!

To Ira's point about licks, all experienced improvisers know from experience that licks can substitute for melody. You have to develop the ear to recognize where. A standard Earl lick that Tony Trischka teaches as the "3-0-2 Lick" works as the basic melody line of Roll in My Sweet Baby's Arms. It's been years since I've been able to write text tab in Forum post, so I'll describe it in words. The core of it is forward-backward roll on these strings: 3-2-1-5-1-2-3-1   using the fretted shape of 3rd string at 3rd fret and 1st string at 2nd fret. On the way up, you can slide into the 3rd fret. On the way down, you can pull-off 3-2. Or you can just play 3rd fret fretted both times.  One easy way the phrase continues after this is with T-I-T-M on 3-2-4-1 (with 4th at 2). Then two tag licks in a row.

Whether or not that comes through understandably, it makes two points: (1) Licks can sub for melody. (2) You don't always put the melody into one roll.

Owen - Posted - 01/21/2026:  11:41:07

Skip:  " ...  find the melody. Then figure out.......  ."

Owen: 

[ ^^ Not a plea for advice/help, just a c'est la vie observation.   ]

Old Hickory - Posted - 01/21/2026:  11:44:06

quote:

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Originally posted by chuckv97

 ...I’ve uttered this “blasphemy” before, [melodic style] hardly uses any wonderful techniques of string instrument playing like slides, hammer-ons, and pulloffs; it’s usually just straight-on notes

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I use melodics a fair amount and mostly I agree with yu. No blasphemy.

But I use some of those slurs in my melodic playing two main ways:

(1) To solve tricky fingering situations. Sometimes a slide, pull-off or hammer-on over two counts gets me two notes easier than picking them. Maybe the needed finger or string weren't available.

(2) In my mixing of Scruggs and melodic. The way I've come to play New Camptown Races has that. Some of it probably came from Bill Keith's version. In one instance I follow a Scruggsy 3-2-1-5 (with 2-3 slide on 3) with a descending melodic scale fragment. That's just one place.

steve davis - Posted - 01/22/2026:  06:02:14

There's no reason not to use slides or anything else when playing melodically.

Tractor1 - Posted - 01/22/2026:  06:37:03

On a very complicated --unique melody ==for it to be intact--there would not be much roll left- however --some crybabies will wear you out--

if in stead -- you know some great licks to play-- that fit  and might have a bit of melody with pinches --the dyed in the wool crowd- will view it as the real way--sometimes one method -- is better banjo talk --sometimes the other --my opinion --I ask no agreement--

The rolls are good for warm up and initial training--but Scruggs is about certain'' well worn'' phrases that keep the finger movements in strong sequences --using lead ins--walk downs --and rests --in traveling from phrase to phrase--my opinion --I ask no agreement--

it comes down to where the presentation is--and who will be present--and what you want them to have for a take away--my opinion --I ask no agreement-- 

just make it say something

Edited by - Tractor1 on 01/22/2026 06:54:01

earlstanleycrowe - Posted - 01/22/2026:  08:35:38

IMO it's hard to play bluegrass banjo without getting the TIMTIMTIMTIMTIM forward-roll motion down.

chuckv97 - Posted - 01/22/2026:  08:50:14

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

There's no reason not to use slides or anything else when playing melodically.

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Right, but they're hardly used in melodic playing.  

O.D. - Posted - 01/22/2026:  09:14:40

Most of us know that Earls goal as a young player was to play using 3 fingers. His playing style is based on using 3 fingers. ( rolls).
A very large part of what he plays, encluding his signature licks are based on 3 finger rolls.
The use of these specific 3 finger patterns by Earl was tantamount to establishing the melody with,drive consistent rhythm and flow
My 2 cents

E

RB3 - Posted - 01/22/2026:  11:07:35

Cap,

I think the appropriate answer to your question is yes; it’s not an either/or process.

Sometimes, the structure of a melody allows rolls to be “fitted” to it. That means that you’re able to use rolls to be able to play the melody notes at the time they’re intended to be played. Other times, because of the structure of the melody, the use of rolls won’t allow you to play the melody notes at the time they’re intended to be played. In that case, you have to play some of the melody notes sooner or later than they’re intended to be played so that you can “fit” them into the rolls that are available to you. Both approaches work.

steve davis - Posted - 01/22/2026:  12:00:16

quote:

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Originally posted by chuckv97

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

There's no reason not to use slides or anything else when playing melodically.

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Right, but they're hardly used in melodic playing.  

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When I play I throw it all together as I feel.My first 10 years of playing was solely with a flatpick.A kind of plectrum style based in chords and their coloration.

I then started in on Scruggs style with picks and then melodic fiddletunes.

I then moved on to mixing them all together but without a flatpick.I still color with chords but wearing fingerpicks.

I get a lot of choices this way.

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 01/22/2026:  12:25:04

What I hear Earl doing is a “melody first “ approach but he likes to slip in those signature licks even if it might replace some melody sometimes. Just reinforcing his style.
And as far as Scruggs v melodic, Scruggs is mostly preferable behind songs I think. For tunes, anything goes really and the top players integrate all styles into a cohesive whole.

Rich Weill - Posted - 01/22/2026:  21:43:28

Let me be the contrarian. All music has three elements: melody, harmony, and rhythm. (Banjo has a fourth: ornamentation.) Of the basic three, the most unforgiving (note: I didn't say the most important) is rhythm. You can get away with a mistake in melody or harmony (chords), but you can't get away with messing up the rhythm. So your initial focus should be on establishing the proper rhythm. Rolls, played properly (which requires more than simply metronomic timing; it also means flow, drive, regular downbeats, etc.) are your rhythm, your foundation. Rolls over the correct chords (rhythm plus harmony) is step two. That's rolling backup. From there, adding in the melody is merely a matter of adjusting your roll strings (rolls are finger patterns; one roll can play numerous string patterns) to catch the melody notes that are in the chord, and your fingering to catch any non-chord melody notes. As others have said, you don't have to catch every melody note, or place them all in the exact musical spot to create a very recognizable tune.

After a while, the rolls and chord progressions become second nature. At that point, you need only think of the melody. The melody will dictate your string pattern, which will guide your finger pattern, and thus suggest the roll to play at any given point in the song. You think melody and your fingers fill in the rest. It creates the illusions that you're filling in notes around the melody. But you're not. You're actually adjusting roll notes to grab the melody where it belongs. But because you've played these patterns so often and ingrained them so deeply that you're no longer conscious of the patterns, you're free to focus only the melody. 

Edited by - Rich Weill on 01/22/2026 21:45:18

Old Hickory - Posted - 01/24/2026:  16:35:49

quote:

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Originally posted by Rich Weill

The melody will dictate your string pattern, which will guide your finger pattern, and thus suggest the roll to play at any given point in the song. You think melody and your fingers fill in the rest. It creates the illusions that you're filling in notes around the melody. But you're not. You're actually adjusting roll notes to grab the melody where it belongs. But because you've played these patterns so often and ingrained them so deeply that you're no longer conscious of the patterns, you're free to focus only the melody. 

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But you are. You just described exactly that you are.

Or, as I described this in different words about the improvising, you're choosing melody and roll at the same time based on your ear and experience telling you where melody notes might fall.

chuckv97 - Posted - 01/24/2026:  16:47:35

I’m not really sure I can think that fast on the fly,, it’s like speaking ,,, stuff just comes out based on experience and deep memory

Rich Weill - Posted - 01/24/2026:  17:33:23

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

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Originally posted by Rich Weill

The melody will dictate your string pattern, which will guide your finger pattern, and thus suggest the roll to play at any given point in the song. You think melody and your fingers fill in the rest. It creates the illusions that you're filling in notes around the melody. But you're not. You're actually adjusting roll notes to grab the melody where it belongs. But because you've played these patterns so often and ingrained them so deeply that you're no longer conscious of the patterns, you're free to focus only the melody. 

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But you are. You just described exactly that you are.

Or, as I described this in different words about the improvising, you're choosing melody and roll at the same time based on your ear and experience telling you where melody notes might fall.

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I think you've confirmed the difference between how the novice should, and the experienced play can, approach this whole which-comes-first question. Sure, an experienced player can choose melody and roll at the same time "based on your ear and experience telling you where melody notes might fall." But the novice can't. A novice can't do much of anything "based on ... experience." So the question is: what's the easiest route for the novice toward that point? I still say: rhythm first. That means: the rolls come first, with the other elements added in while maintaining, and not interrupting, the ongoing rhythm that rolls establish. For a novice to take the "play the melody first and then fill in the spaces with roll notes" approach too often results in an unrhythmical start and stop pattern: find the melody note, figure out what to play next, find the next melody note, add more fill, etc., etc. If, on the other hand, rolls are your foundation, there is no stopping and starting. The rolls go on. Even if you miss a melody note or a chord, the rolls go on. Rhythm is maintained. And when rhythm is maintained, other mistakes are minimized.

RB3 - Posted - 01/25/2026:  08:54:19

With respect to the original question, I think there's also another consideration. I think that creating and learning to play an arrangement that's faithful to the melody is different from trying to play the melody improvisationally.  I can do the former, but I'm not very good at doing the latter.

Edited by - RB3 on 01/25/2026 08:56:50

chuckv97 - Posted - 01/25/2026:  09:34:51

^^^ True, playing “the words” is much different than playing the changes. The latter is often a series of licks/phrases.

Tractor1 - Posted - 01/25/2026:  10:13:36

I always went the opposite -and still do==I only improvise a very small amount--or when I get lost--I memorize all of my songs ( an actual list)--then I find the weak spots that take years to show up as my ability unveils them--or my loss of ability does the same--as always I ask nobody to follow suite

Old Hickory - Posted - 01/25/2026:  11:40:24

quote:

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Originally posted by RB3

With respect to the original question, I think there's also another consideration. I think that creating and learning to play an arrangement that's faithful to the melody is different from trying to play the melody improvisationally.  I can do the former, but I'm not very good at doing the latter.

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I don't get through a jam without missing sometimes on the latter. But still I try.

It's all a matter of recognizing intervals. Which I don't do consistently (as evidenced by the MP3 I shared above). In a nutshell: Recognize whether the first note of the melody is the root, third or fifth of the chord. Over 90% of the time it will be one of those. Then develop an ear for how far up or down the next note is. Or, at each successive chord, recognize when the core melody note is root, third, or fifth. Or something else.

Easy to say. Not so easy to do.

The top pros, of course, do it all the time.

Tractor1 - Posted - 01/25/2026:  12:18:15

there are those with perfect pitch and more so those with relative pitch--not me--it would be handy

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 01/25/2026:  12:22:25

John Boulding put out some very useful videos on this, focusing on the major pentatonic. That, and the blues scale pretty much covers it.

Rich Weill - Posted - 01/26/2026:  08:18:35

quote:

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

John Boulding put out some very useful videos on this, focusing on the major pentatonic.

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This reminds me of one more reason why it's easier to layer in the melody on top of the rolls and chords, rather than start with the melody and try to build around it. Melody notes are either in the chord or on predictable frets near the chord. (That's due to the pentatonic scale, but you needn't get that technical. It's the physical relationship between these notes and the chord shape that's important.) If you're holding the correct chord using only your index, middle, and ring fingers on strings 1, 2, and 3 (unless you need to play the 4th string) -- that is, leaving your pinkie free whenever you can -- you will (a) be able to find those non-chord melody notes with your pinkie (in pinkie reach) at or near the top of the chord shape; and (b) quickly develop the ear-finger coordination to find those notes with that finger reflexively (because their locations remain constant relative to whichever chord shape you're holding).

In other words, it's easier to find the melody once you're already rolling over the chords. This also ensures that you're finding the melody in the correct key. After all, a melody can start on any note, as long as you don't care what key you're in. Try to build around a melody you've found first in the wrong key. It isn't fun.

Pete Wernick - Posted - 01/29/2026:  20:09:52

This is a good thread. I've not read all the contributions but Ken and Rich have made good points.

My contribution is a description I concocted about "how Scruggs style works":

"While keeping your right hand rolling, try to get one of your fingers to the string that has the melody note on it."

It's good to make the distinction between carefully working out a solo versus trying to play a good solo on the fly in a jam. Jams are the main way bluegrass is played, worldwide, since 1945. Key to success is the ability to find melody notes accurately and quickly. In the Wernick Method we work on this skill by having the whole class find each melody note as we sing a song super-slowly. Since all our students want to solo better, developing this skill -- whatever your instrument -- will help anyone be a better soloist. 

After all, if our voice (controlled by muscles we can't see) can sing back a series of melody notes we hear, why can't the muscles controlling the fingers do the same thing? Answer: They can -- if the player practices finding melodies by ear, the faster the better. Knowing where the melody notes is critical to good soloing. Many players aren't good at that, and that would be good for them to work on.

Someone made the point that at some point in a player's progress, the hand just rolls "by itself", probably following patterns that the player needn't think about. It takes a while to get to that point, but I think that's part of what makes good, fluent banjo players. Just like your feet can walk thru an obstacle course without the walker having to know what their feet are doing. the walker just looks at the trail and the feet go there.

It's fun to talk about how the heck so many people can play Scruggs style without having memorized a zillion tabs!

Old Hickory - Posted - 01/30/2026:  14:24:48

quote:

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Originally posted by Pete Wernick

Someone made the point that at some point in a player's progress, the hand just rolls "by itself", probably following patterns that the player needn't think about. It takes a while to get to that point, but I think that's part of what makes good, fluent banjo players.

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I totally agree, which is why I expressed improvisation as choosing melody and roll at the same time.

But, for me anyway, there's a downside to certain rolls being second nature or my hand being able to roll by itself. And that is: some patterns have become so ingrained it's difficult sometimes for me to hit a different string when I want a different note than the automatic pattern would give me.

On the one hand, my decades of playing have given me the ability to usually pick any string I want. But only "usually." Sometimes my fingers refuse, so I settle for a different note. I'm sure I'm the only one who notices.