The Eclectic Banjo - Posted - 02/16/2026:  11:17:36

Working on a new music theory oriented video for my channel and curious if there are any notable Bluegrass songs that use extended chords like G9 or A11? I know with rolling it might not be a chord in the strictest sense (where 5+ disparate pitch classes are played at the same time) but a collection of melodic notes played throughout a roll for a particular measure, not including passing tones.

Thank you

Texasbanjo - Posted - 02/16/2026:  14:10:44

In my opinion, if you stick with the usual traditional 3 to 4 chord bluegrass songs, there aren't many (if any) extended chords that are used.

If you get into melodic there maybe some, but they are usually scale or chromatic phrases. Some jazz or blues songs may end up being played in bluegrass style and they may have some extended chords. And also some classical (not classic) tunes played on the banjo may use the extended chords.

steve davis - Posted - 02/16/2026:  14:23:36

I find it useful to play with guitars that use fancy chords and fit my note choices to them.
I like hearing them rather than labeling.

RB3 - Posted - 02/16/2026:  14:49:29

"Do extended chords come up much in Bluegrass?"

No.

steve davis - Posted - 02/16/2026:  15:38:45

It depends on which kind of bluegrass is being played (or defined).

cjwit - Posted - 02/16/2026:  18:31:13

There’s a lot of space for things like chord substitutions, which are de facto extended chords. A D minor over a G chord gives you a 7 and 9, for example. Or an E minor that brings out the 6. Do they show up often? Eh, no. But mess around with minor triads over “Rock Salt and Nails” for a good time.

Of course, the progressive or jazz oriented branches make good use of that space.

banjobob36 - Posted - 02/17/2026:  04:47:06

Check Beetle George Harrison's "SOMETHING" for extended chords. The song sounds great mixing in non-extended chords.

steve davis - Posted - 02/17/2026:  06:00:20

Substituting chords with minors or 6ths (hard to tell the difference) harmonize real nice.
Listen to Celtic/Irish guitar back-up or other versions of "comp" accompaniment.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/17/2026:  07:37:55

Maybe not on any one instrument, but if you listen to the totality of what a band is playing at any given moment, you get some wild $@!+. A favorite example of mine is the last line of the chorus to the Stanley Brothers' "The Lonesome River". The instruments play an A chord while the trio vocals hit a C-major triad. Arguably, that makes for an A7#9.

I discussed this and other examples in my 2017 paper "Lonesome And Then Some: Unusual Vocal Harmonies On Old Bluegrass Recordings". If you'd like to read it, send me a PM.

youtube.com/watch?v=PmyU6MprcH...lcg%3D%3D

cjwit - Posted - 02/17/2026:  07:51:34

Ira Gitlin I'd go so far as to edit to remove the "arguably": That sounds like a pretty straight up A7#9 to me, especially considering the voicing (with the C on top, well, to get really nerdy, the B#, since it's an altered 9th). I think that the triad voicing in the vocals that bring out extended chord tones against the progression are a huge part of that strident vocal sound, that resonance. Plus, singing dissonances (rather than triads) are practical, as they're much easier to tune. Finally, it's not *that* different from a lot of what's going on over at Blue Note with the three horn arrangements of the post-bop era at around the same time, so there's a connection that would be fun to look into. Some of those are tighter harmonies, though. One of many things on the list of projects that will never happen...

Yeah, I'd love to read the paper. I'll send a PM. Thanks for the link and example.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/17/2026:  08:13:07

quote:

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Originally posted by cjwit

Ira Gitlin I'd go so far as to edit to remove the "arguably": That sounds like a pretty straight up A7#9 to me, especially considering the voicing (with the C on top, well, to get really nerdy, the B#, since it's an altered 9th). I think that the triad voicing in the vocals that bring out extended chord tones against the progression are a huge part of that strident vocal sound, that resonance. Plus, singing dissonances (rather than triads) are practical, as they're much easier to tune. Finally, it's not *that* different from a lot of what's going on over at Blue Note with the three horn arrangements of the post-bop era at around the same time, so there's a connection that would be fun to look into. Some of those are tighter harmonies, though. One of many things on the list of projects that will never happen...



Yeah, I'd love to read the paper. I'll send a PM. Thanks for the link and example.

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The C/B# (I make that point in my paper ) is not the highest note in the vocal trio at that point. Low to high, the stack is G-C-E. 



The thing is, on paper, yes, that's an A7#9, but it feels very different from, say a jazz guy playing that chord on an L-5 with flatwound strings and the tone knob rolled down. From my paper: "I believe that may result from the fact that the voices are so different in timbre from the accompanying instruments. When the timbres are distinct, the unexpected vocal note stands out against the pure major chord rather than blending in with it as an integral part of a lush, more complex chord."

cjwit - Posted - 02/17/2026:  08:28:35

Thanks, got the paper. I guess that listening for a moment in the iPhone in front of the piano isn’t particularly rigorous! I look forward to reading your work, including the jam piece you linked on the other thread. Thanks for sharing.

earlstanleycrowe - Posted - 02/17/2026:  09:09:30

In songs like "Love Please Come Home," "Live and Let Live," and "Dark Hollow," players will play a bVII chord going to the IV chord. If the bass player or another player stays on the I chord, it creates some type of dominant chord (11 chord or 9sus4?).

RB-1 - Posted - 02/17/2026:  12:13:16

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

It depends on which kind of bluegrass is being played (or defined).

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It's really as easy as that....

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/18/2026:  08:10:11

quote:

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Originally posted by earlstanleycrowe

In songs like "Love Please Come Home," "Live and Let Live," and "Dark Hollow," players will play a bVII chord going to the IV chord. If the bass player or another player stays on the I chord, it creates some type of dominant chord (11 chord or 9sus4?).

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Or, as in this version of "Dark Hollow" (tied with the Seldom Scene's for my favorite) you might hear the instruments stay on the I while the vocals form a bVII, creating a full 11th chord: youtube.com/watch?v=M9F94Mt__x...3Jvd2U%3D .

steve davis - Posted - 02/18/2026:  09:58:31

Play what's fun and sounds good to you.There are no rules...just choices.
Some are riskier than others.

banjoy - Posted - 02/18/2026:  10:35:56

Given that there are only a few examples of extended chords (and not played by instruments, but rather are a composite of instruments and overlaid vocals) among the hundreds (thousands?) of Bluegrass tunes, I think the answer to "Do extended chords come up much in Bluegrass?" the answer seems to be, no, not much.



I think the same can be said of classic country.

Edited by - banjoy on 02/18/2026 10:37:31

cjwit - Posted - 02/18/2026:  12:11:31

quote:

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Originally posted by banjoy

Given that there are only a few examples of extended chords (and not played by instruments, but rather are a composite of instruments and overlaid vocals) among the hundreds (thousands?) of Bluegrass tunes, I think the answer to "Do extended chords come up much in Bluegrass?" the answer seems to be, no, not much.



I think the same can be said of classic country.

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I'd say the opposite, but that's just getting into questions of definition. When you consider the group as a whole and the ways in which small groups of instruments/voices operate independently, yet fit together, you're really thinking of orchestration. Much of musical structure (including functional harmony) grows out of linear motion rather than vertical chords, and Ira's examples show how the "extended harmonies" come from melodic motion that creates interesting colors (extended harmonies), but now this is more a question of what counts as what.

Answering "no" threatens to flatten so much bluegrass harmony into simplistic boxes, but I don't think that's fair to the innovators within the tradition. So it's not that this stuff doesn't matter or is just a linguistic ticky-tacky debate: it can lead to inappropriate dismissive attitudes toward creativity. (I regularly see this in my music colleagues who focus on other genres of music, so maybe it's personal. Sorry about that.)

The Eclectic Banjo - Posted - 02/18/2026:  13:03:34

quote:

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Originally posted by banjoy

Given that there are only a few examples of extended chords (and not played by instruments, but rather are a composite of instruments and overlaid vocals) among the hundreds (thousands?) of Bluegrass tunes, I think the answer to "Do extended chords come up much in Bluegrass?" the answer seems to be, no, not much.



I think the same can be said of classic country.

---

What about when you have 5 or more banjo players in a jam and they're all inadvertently tuned up/down 1 or more half steps from each other on this or that string? Actually 5 might be too generous of a number... 

Edited by - The Eclectic Banjo on 02/18/2026 13:04:13

banjoy - Posted - 02/18/2026:  14:18:13

I thought the question was pretty straightforward. I've been a musician for 50 years, starting with classical violin. To say I'm flattening things is putting me in a box and defining me in ways that are simply one-dimensional. Please stop doing that. I think it's safe to say that the majority of Bluegrass musicians don't think in these terms. At all. Most chords a Bluegrass musicians needs under their fingers beyond the three major triad shapes are 7th, Major 7th, minor and minor 7th chords. From there it's easy to figure out. The movement of melody within the passing chords is simply movement. Every note played does not need to be defined in terms of chords. So if I play a melodic line over a chord, every single note I play in theory creates a new chord stack, which could be named, but I don't think like this.

FWIW, here is my booklet on how to find any chord on the fingerboard of a 5-string banjo. Once you have the three major triad shapes down, and you know where the 1, 3 and 5 are within those shapes, modifying, or adding to, is easy. But music is from the heart, not the head. Theory is not music. Music comes before theory, then theory attempts to explain it.

banjohangout.org/topic/361633

Debating esoteric qualities of music can be fun and educational, but it's not music.

banjoy - Posted - 02/18/2026:  14:22:05

quote:

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Originally posted by The Eclectic Banjo

 

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What about when you have 5 or more banjo players in a jam and they're all inadvertently tuned up/down 1 or more half steps from each other on this or that string? Actually 5 might be too generous of a number... 

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Amen, brother! 

The Eclectic Banjo - Posted - 02/18/2026:  17:01:33

quote:

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Originally posted by banjoy

FWIW, here is my booklet on how to find any chord on the fingerboard of a 5-string banjo. Once you have the three major triad shapes down, and you know where the 1, 3 and 5 are within those shapes, modifying, or adding to, is easy. But music is from the heart, not the head. Theory is not music. Music comes before theory, then theory attempts to explain it.



banjohangout.org/topic/361633

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Yes I actually worked through your book several years ago when I first came across the thread, it really helped me as a budding banjo theorist :) 

cjwit - Posted - 02/19/2026:  04:16:53

banjoy I really enjoy this topic and always have. Like you said, thinking about these qualities of music can be fun and educational (I don't think we're debating anything, really... it is music "theory," after all and not an argument about "music fact"). I didn't mean to imply that you are flattening anything, I just warn that there are folks out there who assume simplicity and take that as a reason to dismiss entire communities. There's some value in demonstrating this music's complexity. I sincerely apologize for being unclear. The book looks great, I've always thought that those kinds of geometric methods of considering the fretboard are great for showing important relationships. Thanks for the work you do.



Alongside some of these other ways in which melodic ideas create extended harmonies, was thinking of a few others: fiddle players regularly use the flat seventh and ninth as a colorful double stop. That's part of standard harmony, but when some bluegrass fiddlers throw a perfect fifth in the melody by laying a finger across two strings, they often do so without regard of how the added second note fits in the overall chord. That's also an extended harmony, but one that's more idiomatic to bluegrass fiddle (rather than being borrowed from jazz). Here I mean a double stop C and G on the A and E strings over a G chord, for example. Is that C an 11 or a cool color? Both/and? Does it matter? It's a neat sound that is part of common practice in bluegrass, though.



If you stay focused on the harmonies coming out of the instruments that outline the chords, there are also some examples that show more of the fuzziness of genre boundaries. Some may not consider these bluegrass, but they show up at jams, depending on who is there. Tony Rice uses extended harmonies all the time. I transcribed "Just Some Bar in the French Quarter" by request of a friend at one point, that's some colorful harmony. Is it bluegrass or jazz? The album has "On Green Dolphin Street." He uses those harmonies elsewhere, too. Same with folks like David Grisman and the like. I've always felt that determining genre lines like that is beyond my pay grade. And I find debating those lines less interesting than thinking about what the sounds, traditions, or expectations are that make folks consider those genre lines.



Maybe this is also too far from what most think of as bluegrass, too, but Texas fiddle's guitar traditions and the related Western swing sound are full of chords with added 6s and 9s.



And sometimes these chords support melodies, even if they're not part of the fiddle line. When I call John Hartford's "Tall Buildings," I find it far, far easier to sing the melody over "I'm going to work..." when the underlying four chord has an added 6 (the melody is note there is Re, which is the sixth of the four chord).



The Eclectic Banjo Sorry if this is veering away from what would be useful for a video on harmonies withing banjo rolling, specifically. What kinds of things are you planning on for the project? I'd be interested in hearing more!

Edited by - cjwit on 02/19/2026 04:18:04

The Eclectic Banjo - Posted - 02/19/2026:  07:27:26

I guess my main interest is how instruments that typically play one note at a time, like the bluegrass banjo but also the fiddle comes to mind too, can express complex chords. I learned about something recently called “temporal integration” where the human ear can recognize complex chords if notes are played really close together, and I think that may be the central point for me in explaining why the bluegrass banjo sounds so amazing when it’s doing its thing. So I then thought about how G major measures in bluegrass music can often include a low E or D major measures can drone a high G, and it begged the question whether the measure was expressing an inversion 6 chord for G6/E (but only using the chord symbol “G”) or a Dadd11 chord for the high G drone note (but expressed only as a “D” chord symbol). Or could the low E and high G be characterized better as a passing tone, a neighbor tone, or a pedal tone? I think the answer is that it depends on the context of which beats the notes fall inside the measure, such as the down or up beats or somewhere in between. Also where in the chord progression the notes fall. And ultimately the knowledge that a colorful tone can augment or enhance the tonal center of a measure without actually changing its tonal center of G major or D major, for instance.



A secondary interest is ways we can get lots of notes played as close together as possible on the banjo. Now obviously we can’t play the banjo like a piano or an accordion, where 1 finger plays 1 note of a certain pitch… open notes, slurs, or crazy things like ASPO aside, it takes 2 fingers to play a note at a certain pitch within the banjo’s octave range: 1 finger on the picking hand and 1 finger on the fretting hand. One could say that strums or triplet motions could be used to burst out a bunch of notes. But the open strum at the end of a G song wouldn’t technically be considered a 5-note extended chord since there aren’t 5 distinct pitch classes being played, just 3 pitch classes GBD with 2 additional octaves. One could consider using all 5 fingers of the picking hand, but with limitations. We lose the anchor finger which really helps stability at high tempos, and we encounter picking inefficiencies as well. Could we use our noses to fret? (I actually was able to ask Bela Fleck that question once during a workshop and his response was to play a mode with his nose fretting certain frets on the 5th string. It was pretty amazing.) But again, picking inefficiencies (not to be confused with nose picking inefficiencies, har har har).



Another thought was when, at the end of a song, you can sometimes do a double strum in a quick up-down motion. I’ll do this with Shady Grove in Gm in which I strum down a F major chord, F-A-C-F, and then strum up a G major open, D-B-G-D-G, which sounds really good. So could one build an extended chord from that? In order of pitches: D-F-G-A-B-C-D-F-G. ChatGPT’s analysis:



You gave (low ? high):

D – F – G – A – B – C – D – F – G

First, remove duplicates and stack as a pitch collection:

D – F – G – A – B – C

Now analyze relative to D as the root.



Step 1: Identify the intervals from D

* D = root

* F = ?3

* G = 4 (11)

* A = 5

* B = 6 (13)

* C = ?7

So relative to D, you have:

1 – ?3 – 4 – 5 – 6 – ?7



Step 2: What kind of 7th chord is this?

Because you have:

* ?3

* ?7

That gives you a minor 7 foundation.

So the core chord is:

Dm7

(D – F – A – C)



Step 3: Add the extensions

You also have:

* 4 (11)

* 6 (13)

So now we extend:

Dm7(11,13)



Final Chord Symbol

The most complete symbol would be:

Dm13(11)

Why?

In jazz chord naming:

* Once you include the 13, the 7 is assumed.

* The 11 is added if present.

* The 9 is optional — and you don’t have an E, so there’s no 9.

So strictly speaking:

Dm13(add11)?or?Dm7(11,13)

are both accurate.

Most compact theoretical label:

Dm13(11)



Bluegrass Reality Check ??

In a bluegrass context, nobody would call that Dm13(11).

It would probably be heard as:

* D minor-ish color

* Or a modal D sound (like D Dorian)

Because the presence of B natural suggests D Dorian, not pure D natural minor.



Even Deeper Insight

That pitch collection is actually:

D Dorian scale tones

D – E – F – G – A – B – C

You’re just missing the E.

So harmonically, it’s less of a “jazz extension chord” and more of a:

Dm7 with modal (Dorian) color tones stacked vertically.

Edited by - The Eclectic Banjo on 02/19/2026 07:28:57

banjoy - Posted - 02/19/2026:  08:09:08

Oh my goodness. I should have known better than to post to this thread LOL. I am on the run at the moment and don't have time to read these long posts, but will later today. I did want to clarify that when I say extended chords don't come up much in Bluegrass, that's a factual reply from my point of view and experience, but that is not to say they never come up, and for goodness sake, not to be construed as a negative and to never do it. They are not the same thing, these are different questions.



I do this myself all the time. For example, I've queued up this YouTube video of an original tune a friend of mine wrote that I heavily modified, changed the ending, and end up playing a G arpeggio over a D harmonic at the end (it's in the key of D).



youtu.be/H_FgQH4Lgs8?si=gkk6Y-...sbn&t=186



(Forgive me for any ads that show up, I have zero control over that on YouTube...)



Now, this would have a name but I don't care what the name would be. It's a sound that left the ending unresolved but in a pleasing way, little tension but unresolved.



For me, music is much akin to a spoken language, you learn how to talk first, then you can learn the rules of the language, or not. It is impossible to do the other way round. You can't learn the rules without knowing how to talk because it takes knowing and using the language to even be able to discuss it. Music is the same.



Learning to talk and learning to play music are very similar, you learn by recognizing patterns, then learning that some patterns are more common than others, then using and replicating these patterns over a long time. The more patterns and variances you are exposed to, the wider your vocabulary and command of the language will be, whether you learn the rules or not. Most kids don't begin to learn about nouns, pronouns, verbs etc etc until they've been using the language for about 10 years or so, about 4th grade and beyond. In music it has always been my feeling that you should learn the basics of the instrument first before attempting to learn any theory (or not) before any of it can make sense at all. You can't learn music theory first then learn to play music.



But knowledge of theory is not a requirement to being a top shelf musician. Take Billy Strings, for example. In a recent video he talked about attending some of Bryan Sutton's workshops because he doesn't know anything about theory and wanted to learn more about what he's doing. But by golly he can play some intricate complex stuff. The same with Tommy Emmanuel, who openly admits he cannot read or write music. Hasn't slowed him down either.



Anyway sometimes these discussions can turn quickly to nothing more than intellectual self-pleasuring and sometimes worse, intellectual bullying which I have observed here on BHO before and experienced in real life. Music Theory Bullies are no different than any other type of bully. I'm not saying that's what's going on here, and perhaps what I'm addressing here has already been addressed above. Later today I'll read up and if further response or comment is necessary for me to clarify further, I'll make another post.



Also, to Dan, I admire your intellectual curiosity and sometimes your threads on the one hand seem simplistic yet on the other hand, deep and sincere all at the same time. You're on a learning path which to me comes from your intellect. We all have our own path and who am I to judge one way or another. So I try not to judge ... but I am a human being and sometimes I get it wrong, or post from the wrong center, or spirit. But I try to add to discussions, rather than take things away or ruffle feathers. Not my intent. I hope I have not offended anyone with my viewpoints, which I believe are harmless.



More later, if necessary. I hope all this makes sense.

Edited by - banjoy on 02/19/2026 08:17:06

cjwit - Posted - 02/19/2026:  08:54:14

> nose picking inefficiencies

The Eclectic Banjo That made me laugh, like for real, out loud. Moreover, the kind of things you're thinking about are pretty standard fare in jazz arranging. The truth is, you can find ways to explain pretty much any note in the Dorian mode over a minor seven chord (where the major six fits in context). The fact that bluegrass players do this too only makes sense, since it's both "in the air" in mid-century American popular music (Miles Davis's Kind of Blue came out in 1959 and while it was innovative, it wasn't the only thing playing with those ideas) and it's, frankly, a central part of many banjo and fiddle traditions, things that we now call "modal" or "mountain" tuning, for example. It goes back pretty far. I'm with you and am buying what you're selling. And I could nerd out about it all day long. Obviously.



I do think there's a habit, even in the music theory world, to get the cart before the horse. If you consider music theory as a set of tools—which I do—then you can use the tools to help explain or understand something that's happening. And there are tons of tools. Chord naming using jazz conventions and the Schenkerian ideas that those grow from (Roman numerals and looking for large-scale compositional patterns) are one common tool. Things like Nashville numbering are practical and grow from that. But there are a ton of other tools in the tool box and they don't all focus on vertical alignment, you know? I personally find it more useful to think in melodic motion, with the chord labeling as a helpful shorthand to describe the colors that result, which is why the stacked harmonies are interesting.



banjoy > Now, this would have a name but I don't care what the name would be. It's a sound that left the ending unresolved but in a pleasing way, little tension but unresolved.



Exactly, I'm with you! The names are helpful when they're helpful and useless when they're not. It's a perfect "YMMV" situation.



> For me, music is much akin to a spoken language, you learn how to talk first, then you can learn the rules of the language, or not. It is impossible to do the other way round. You can't learn the rules without knowing how to talk because it takes knowing and using the language to even be able to discuss it. Music is the same.



Also agreed wholeheartedly. Sometimes knowing a bit more can trigger some cool ideas, but it's far more fun (for me) to sit on the porch and mess around with things then, if I want, go back and work out what the hell that was. But I rarely bother... It does help when taking a tune to a group, though.



Your Billy Strings comment reminded me of a workshop with fiddler Billy Contreras where he casually started describing practicing modes of the melodic minor by playing fiddle tunes in things like super Locrian and Lydian dominant. It's an example of someone fully in the most modern sounds of contemporary jazz, but putting it into string band fiddle sounds. Crazy stuff.



Beautiful piece of music and playing, thanks for sharing that. I think that the banjo is underappreciated for this kind of thing. I clicked through to some of your other videos and the one reminded me of Les Paul's solo in his version of "The World is Waiting for the Sunrise." Speaking of wild sounds that challenge classical/jazz theory. This one, to me, seems like it comes out of idiomatic playing techniques, but I only say that because I can see the guitar. Different tools for different sounds. (Solo starts at about a minute in.)



youtube.com/watch?v=7iGXP_UBog4

Edited by - cjwit on 02/19/2026 08:54:50

banjoy - Posted - 02/19/2026:  10:40:21

I am still on the run today (I use free WiFi at the public library) and did a quick read up ^^ and I think we're all good, all seem to be on the same page. I think I've met my match in both The Eclectic Banjo and cjwit in making long verbose posts. It's reassuring to see I'm not alone in that LOL!! We should print up some membership cards or something :)

Bringing up fiddlers in this context / topic ... one of my all-time favorite fiddlers was Vassar Clements (RIP) who did some awesome swing work and of course, Bluegrass. What always got my ear with him was he would do stuff that in theory, should not work at all, was waaaaay out of the norm, but in his hands, worked like magic. The only other fiddler I've ever heard come close to Vassar was a guy I met decades ago named Marion Sumner (also deceased) in eastern Kentucky (he has an album out of June Appal Records). His stuff was way outside the box just like Vassar, a joy to listen to.

Anyway, this topic has been interesting and I apologize for any thread drift or hijack that I may have caused.

steve davis - Posted - 02/19/2026:  20:12:37

I play around with adding other notes to chords because they sound good to me.
If anyone wants to explain the theory behind these choices that's up to them.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/20/2026:  06:40:22

quote:

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Originally posted by banjoy

I think I've met my match in both The Eclectic Banjo and cjwit in making long verbose posts. It's reassuring to see I'm not alone in that LOL!! We should print up some membership cards or something :)



 

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If I were to make a habit of checking into BHO at night, after a couple of glasses of wine, instead of in the morning, before my coffee kicks in, I'd be right there with y'all when it came to word count. 



Seriously, I'm enjoying reading the discussion.



About 30 years ago, a violin-playing friend was starting to get into bluegrass. She asked first-generation fiddler Joe Meadows (who lived in the DC area for the last several decades of his life) over to her place to show her some licks, and asked me over to help explain from a more formal, theoretical point of view. At one point Joe was showing her a D-chord lick, in the course of which he played a double stop--E on the D string and C on the A string. She stopped him to ask why he chose those notes. Joe--who, like most 1st-gen. bluegrass guys, didn't read music or know any formal theory--said something along the lines of, "I can't explain why, but sometimes it when you're on a D chord, it sounds good to play a C chord." It was my job, as the intermediary, to explain to her that those notes were the 9th and the dominant 7th.



I'm interested in how people who don't know the formal terminology, theory, etc. (like Billy Strings or Tommy Emmanuel, mentioned above, or--my favorite example--Django Reinhardt) conceptualize what they're doing. Clearly they think about it a lot in some way, but what goes on in their head, without being filtered through formal terminology? (I'm reminded of an account I read about one of those calculating prodigies that engineers and scientists used to rely on before adding machines, computers, etc. He'd come up with his own idiosyncratic terminology to denote large numbers; it bore little resemblance to anything in general use.)

Edited by - Ira Gitlin on 02/20/2026 06:53:38

banjoy - Posted - 02/20/2026:  07:38:14

I've always enjoyed your posts and explanations, Ira, which never cease to make me think and/or blow my mind. You come from a balance of intellect, heart and soul, it seems to me.

Add to the above list the jazz pianist Joey Alexander, who it seems came out of the womb an old soul jazz master. He's all over YouTube from like age 8 or so, at Lincoln Center by 10 and all over the world, literally touring, and I think he's maybe 18 or 19 by now. Several albums out and nominated for three Grammy awards. He tells the story of how he once tried taking classical lessons where they tried to get him to read music and it didn't work out so well LOL. He just does what he does.

banjoy - Posted - 02/20/2026:  07:50:26

quote:

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Originally posted by cjwit

... one reminded me of Les Paul's solo in his version of "The World is Waiting for the Sunrise." Speaking of wild sounds that challenge classical/jazz theory. This one, to me, seems like it comes out of idiomatic playing techniques, but I only say that because I can see the guitar. Different tools for different sounds. (Solo starts at about a minute in.)



youtube.com/watch?v=7iGXP_UBog4

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Thanks for that link, loved it. Les Paul goes a little wild there LOL. Somewhere I've seen where Mary Ford does a great break on it too (I'm thinking it was this tune), she was no slouch, quite the guitar picker!

In the vein of this OP topic, the 2nd chord in this tune "World is Waiting for the Sunrise" you heard me playing a straight Am chord. I'm aware that this should be a diminished chord (an extended chord!!) here but over years of trying to express that at jam sessions and getting stares like a mule looking at a new-locked gate, it's just easier to go with Am which subsitututes fine. 

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 02/20/2026:  10:15:19

For further reading, you might look into polychords. Chords which are adjacent on the circle of fifths (G+D) sound more consonant, while those further away start to sound more tense. Useful I think, as a basis for understanding how playing a D chord over G sounds, and a theoretical justification for these sounds. Of course, the banjo wouldn't be able to play a polychord, it would involve several instruments.

250gibson - Posted - 02/20/2026:  13:35:07

While there are many different conventions, typically the extensions (9,11,13) are not written unless they deviate from the key/mode of the piece and just the chord tones up to the 7th are noted. For example, in the key of Bb minor (Bb,C,Db,Eb,F,Gb,Ab), over the Bbm7 chord (Bb,Db,F,Ab) there may be a C (the 9th) or an Eb (the 11th) played by some of the instruments and or voices, but it rarely is notated as anything other than a Bbm7. It is generally understood that the Gb would not be played as this would created dissonance by playing an augmented 5th along with the chord tone 5th. Occasionally in the same key, you will come across a Bbm13 on a lead sheet. What this is telling the players is that in the melody there is an alteration to the scale that adds the natural 6th, in this case G, and therefore playing the 13 (in addition to the already consonant 9 and 11) will no longer be dissonant.

To relate this to the original question, rarely do we see alterations like this in bluegrass, so you don’t really see extended chords written even though these extensions may be present in the harmony or melody. In the classic Foggy Mountain Breakdown example, Lester’s playing of an Emajor over the Eminor chord creates an E7#9 chord. This type of dissonance is sometimes wanted for its bluesy sound. I am not 100% convinced if this was intended by Flatt and Scruggs or was a “happy accident” however, If the chart says Em7 and a session guy played a G# like Lester did, he would probably get some dirty looks.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/21/2026:  07:23:09

quote:

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Originally posted by banjoy

I've always enjoyed your posts and explanations, Ira, which never cease to make me think and/or blow my mind. You come from a balance of intellect, heart and soul, it seems to me.



 

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Aw, shucks....



Thanks!

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/21/2026:  07:30:01

quote:

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Originally posted by 250gibson

.



To relate this to the original question, rarely do we see alterations like this in bluegrass, so you don’t really see extended chords written even though these extensions may be present in the harmony or melody. In the classic Foggy Mountain Breakdown example, Lester’s playing of an Emajor over the Eminor chord creates an E7#9 chord. This type of dissonance is sometimes wanted for its bluesy sound. I am not 100% convinced if this was intended by Flatt and Scruggs or was a “happy accident” however, If the chart says Em7 and a session guy played a G# like Lester did, he would probably get some dirty looks.

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This is discussed at some length in Thomas Goldsmith's book Earl Scruggs and Foggy Mountain Breakdown: The Making of an American Classic. IIRC (someone borrowed my copy, I think, otherwise I'd look it up to confirm), back in 1949 Flatt was unaccustomed to playing minor chords, and though Scruggs tried to get him to play an Em, he reverted to the more familiar major in the studio. Scruggs eventually conceded, "It got to sounding pretty good."



In that context Goldsmith also quotes Bill Monroe: "Those old time musicians never did know how to play a minor chord." And I remember Pete Wernick talking about a student in one of his jamming camps who never played minor chords. Why? Because the man's overly religious wife thought they were literally evil!

Edited by - Ira Gitlin on 02/21/2026 07:31:20

Lew H - Posted - 02/21/2026:  09:18:06

It's not typical bluegrass, but there may be some examples and answers to your question in Alan Munde's tab book, The Great American Bluegrass Songbook." It has a lot of jazz tunes and shows banjo chords in addition to the tab.

cjwit - Posted - 02/24/2026:  07:03:45

By recommendation of writerrad and Don Borchelt (thanks!), I started watching the full Flatt and Scruggs TV shows. The second episode (end of Vol. 1) ended with a vocal tune, "Precious Memories," [1] that made me think of this thread again. It has some striking G6 chords. You could call those 13s, but they work more like 6s as in the "American songbook" rep. So are they extended harmonies? Depends on who you ask. Similarly, some of these harmonies make use of arranging techniques that really pop, things like open perfect intervals way up above the rest of the ensemble. So even if these are not extended chords, I'd argue that they demonstrate how the commercial bluegrass bands of the were absolutely professionals drawing from some adventurous contemporary trends.

You could say, "Oh, but those are like barbershop harmonies." Yeah, and those had extended harmonies influenced by contemporary trends, too.



[1]: youtu.be/wcLIKDwmHE8?si=bKqJK-...2e&t=2762

Edited by - cjwit on 02/24/2026 07:06:41

writerrad - Posted - 02/24/2026:  13:00:10

The practice of Gospel and "sacred' music from the 19th century on was an intense school of sophisticated musical knowledge practiced by people with formal musical training  who obtained status in their communities and aspired to and achieved quite good livings as sing writers, music publishers, choir and chorus directors,  singers at worship,  and public entertainers.  

Gospel music entertainment especially in the first 70 years of the 20th century was often a surer path to a good living than commercial song writing and entertaining for white and Black people in the South and much of the rest of the nation.   There was an enormously high level of formal musical knowledge and borrowing and creation of advanced harmonic and compositional techniques in both white and Black plebeian religious music in the first two thirds of the 20th century. 

Religious music of this kind was not the work of amateurs and was not at all the sole result of "folk" traditions, provided composers, song writers, as week as performers with financial rewards and steady living.

Edited by - writerrad on 02/24/2026 13:06:22

cjwit - Posted - 02/25/2026:  05:37:55

writerrad Yeah, exactly. I almost wrote a bit in that earlier post wondering about the impact of things like the AFM strike and ASCAP ban on all of this. It seems that for many, these southern sounds just came out of nowhere. It's easy to imagine that everything before that was unsophisticated, when it just didn't have the opportunity to get onto certain types of broadcast or urban popular media. Of course, much of it was on broadcast and popular media, but if you were listening to Tin Pan Alley songs and NYC swing bands until the entire music industry has to suddenly shift, then you might be surprised at what you hear.

I can't help but think of the idea that Egyptians could not have built the pyramids, so it must have been aliens. When ideas fit into biases, they are easy to accept. I'm sure folks have explored this element of media industry history as it relates to these sounds, but tropes are hard to overcome, you know?

writerrad - Posted - 02/25/2026:  06:53:11

Modern "country" music is a product of the consolidation by the record companies, musical publishing industy, and  major radio stations from 1940 through the 1950s.  Monroe's development of Bluegrass was his reaction and resistance and dedication to survive as a creative artist and make his money in the face of the changes at the Opry and in the music companies that were part of the big wartime and especially post-war consolidation of what by the late 40s was called "country".  Several of the best studies of Monroe really show how his creativity and career were a direct respond to it.  Cantwell's is still the best.

In that context, string bands on the big radio stations and the package shows that they sponsored were more and more reduced if not eliminated.  They were often reduced to part time comedians and each major radio program would tend to have a token "hillbilly" group that would effect rube humor, but the general drive through this period was to move in the direction of 32 bar songs about romance stressing vocals.  In the postwar period there was a merger or tightening of the links from the capitalist concerns that controlled music publishing, those that had interests in the major radio stations,  those that ran recording companies and those that controlled the big performance venues.

There was also the drive to racialize things with Black Harmonica Player Deford Bailey and other Black performers (Bailey was not the only one but the most prominent) driven out of the  Oprey and racially attacked by the Oprey leadership when the real beef was that Bailey refused to replace  his repertoire of ASCAP songs with new BMI songs.  Incidentally, Monroe defended Bailey pretty courageously, taking him out with his touring show.  After the Oprey fired Bailey with racist insults in the papers,  Monroe had Deford Bailey on Monroe's on portion of the Oprey several times and paid Bailey out of his own money.  It is not a coincidence that when Deford Bailey died, his family and friends had Bill Monroe sing and speak at his funeral.

While Monroe did consider taking up the electric guitar and become the voice singer in what we would call a five-piece band,  his invention of Bluegrass as a driving performance show music and the overwhelming response to the great music he made was exactly a response to the pressure that came with the postwar invention of Country music.  It also reflected finding a space for a string band once the space for string bands playing for dancing was not commercially viable.  Cantwell is still the best to explain how Monroe's invention of bluegrass was a response to the vice the record companies, performance venues, and major radio stations started to put on things across the 1940s.       

Of course, Monroe had the parallel of what Western Swing had done to become massively popular during the same years. In 1945  Bob Wills' had the biggest grossing band in the music industry.  And even in Jazz, the trend over the same period that Monroe created Bluegrass was a shift from big orchestras that made their money playing for dances, to small combos led by virtuoso musicians who thrilled audiences with their solos.

Monroe's changes were hardly unique across the music industry in the post war period.  Still it is amazing that one person could exercise such positive leadership, creativity, and had such a determined grasp on what this music could uniquely offer.   It's really inspiring.

Tractor1 - Posted - 02/25/2026:  07:53:00

extended chords can be overkill--I use my ear and might go for only a familar E7 (if it sounds better) instead of a flatted G9th-- G sharp dim might be turned to an E7 if it is headed towards A --correct inversions can actually come into play--I realize this when piddling on my keyboard-with all the modern tools one can search for the notes each and every one --and a chord with umpteen notes may not need many of them--

my opinion -I ask no agreement

Tractor1 - Posted - 02/25/2026:  09:53:58

btw the dumbed -down chords that I use above have the important identical notes imo

The Eclectic Banjo - Posted - 02/26/2026:  04:24:14

Yes I’m reminded by various sources that extended chords may not always be “voiced” with every single note to maintain the “color” of the chord. Such as D13:

D – F# – A – C – E – G – B
(1 – 3 – 5 – b7 – 9 – 11 – 13)

Taking the Root D, the Tritone F# to C, and the 13th B should get the essence of the chord without having to play every single note.

I’ve always been fascinated with the melodic and harmonic qualities of bluegrass rolling and it’s with what everyone has contributed in this thread that I can more fully appreciate the why behind the what. Thanks!

The Eclectic Banjo - Posted - 02/26/2026:  05:55:29

quote:

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Originally posted by writerrad

Modern "country" music is a product of the consolidation by the record companies, musical publishing industy, and  major radio stations from 1940 through the 1950s.  Monroe's development of Bluegrass was his reaction and resistance and dedication to survive as a creative artist and make his money in the face of the changes at the Opry and in the music companies that were part of the big wartime and especially post-war consolidation of what by the late 40s was called "country".  Several of the best studies of Monroe really show how his creativity and career were a direct respond to it.  Cantwell's is still the best.

In that context, string bands on the big radio stations and the package shows that they sponsored were more and more reduced if not eliminated.  They were often reduced to part time comedians and each major radio program would tend to have a token "hillbilly" group that would effect rube humor, but the general drive through this period was to move in the direction of 32 bar songs about romance stressing vocals.  In the postwar period there was a merger or tightening of the links from the capitalist concerns that controlled music publishing, those that had interests in the major radio stations,  those that ran recording companies and those that controlled the big performance venues.

There was also the drive to racialize things with Black Harmonica Player Deford Bailey and other Black performers (Bailey was not the only one but the most prominent) driven out of the  Oprey and racially attacked by the Oprey leadership when the real beef was that Bailey refused to replace  his repertoire of ASCAP songs with new BMI songs.  Incidentally, Monroe defended Bailey pretty courageously, taking him out with his touring show.  After the Oprey fired Bailey with racist insults in the papers,  Monroe had Deford Bailey on Monroe's on portion of the Oprey several times and paid Bailey out of his own money.  It is not a coincidence that when Deford Bailey died, his family and friends had Bill Monroe sing and speak at his funeral.

While Monroe did consider taking up the electric guitar and become the voice singer in what we would call a five-piece band,  his invention of Bluegrass as a driving performance show music and the overwhelming response to the great music he made was exactly a response to the pressure that came with the postwar invention of Country music.  It also reflected finding a space for a string band once the space for string bands playing for dancing was not commercially viable.  Cantwell is still the best to explain how Monroe's invention of bluegrass was a response to the vice the record companies, performance venues, and major radio stations started to put on things across the 1940s.       

Of course, Monroe had the parallel of what Western Swing had done to become massively popular during the same years. In 1945  Bob Wills' had the biggest grossing band in the music industry.  And even in Jazz, the trend over the same period that Monroe created Bluegrass was a shift from big orchestras that made their money playing for dances, to small combos led by virtuoso musicians who thrilled audiences with their solos.

Monroe's changes were hardly unique across the music industry in the post war period.  Still it is amazing that one person could exercise such positive leadership, creativity, and had such a determined grasp on what this music could uniquely offer.   It's really inspiring.

 

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I enjoy reading your short stories :) But I have no idea how what your wrote relates to extended chords. Are you implying that Country music uses extended chords and Bluegrass music does not? =D 

writerrad - Posted - 02/26/2026:  07:00:42

Much of the true folk music propaganda and the uninformed belief this was "roots music" by outsiders makes one forget that By the time these shows were aired,  Lester and Earl and most of their peers there had been working musicians being paid for two or three decades. 

I do know much about Lester, but I know that Earl had been practicing music seriously since childhood and trying to suck up any information about music to a very high standard, in part inspired by Earl's Dad who passed away when Earl was 8.  As kids, Earl, his brother, and his sister worked incessantly on practicing and learning music.   One thing they would do as youngsters would boggle the minds of most adult musicians I know.  To would work on getting their time right, taking turns,  two of the three would stand back to back  in front of their house, each holding a guitar or banjo back to back facing the opposite direction.  They would start playing the same tune and walk in opposite directions around their house with the goal of keeping the same exact time so they would be on THE SAME NOTE when they crossed each other on the other side of the house!   I am sure there are people who have be employed by symphonies who would find that a challenge.

Lester was pretty good.  In fact he was so good that when Bill and Charlie Monroe split up their brother act and Charlie had his own band,  Charlie hired Lester Flatt to replace Bill on mandolin and vocals!  Think of it, a man Bill Monroe's brother thought could replace Bill Monroe, as well as a man who Bill Monroe hired to be his rhythm guitar player and vocalist..

There is a general misunderstanding of the fairly high level of formal musicianship and practical musicianship that existed in this epoch when the main way a person could hear music would be to go somewhere where someone was playing music or play music yourself.  .  By the time the first show was aired in the 50s both Lester and Earl had been working musicians for years.   

The level of sophistications of "sacred" songs and harmonies had reached by the time these shows were aired reflected how much opportunity and training and practice and how attractive to audiences Gospel and other sacred songs were, both for writers and publishers of such music as well as how high and developed arrangement and performance of that material was at all levels of music playing.

Some of these things stand out if we are expecting "true folk," from some state of blissful ignorance and "folk" purity, but if we are thinking these are top of the game professional musicians who have been working as musicians for decades who have been at it since childhood who have competed to obtain a superior position--on the Grand Ole Opry, having a daily radio and television show for nearly two decades, being recording artists for years--then this is all pretty logical this is what is to be expected.    

By the time the show in question was shown,  Earl Scruggs had learned to fly an airplane, and often flew his own airplane to appearances.  If he could figure that out, you would not be surprised if the music he created was sophisticated and developed.

Edited by - writerrad on 02/26/2026 07:13:31

writerrad - Posted - 02/26/2026:  07:18:35

While Monroe did consider taking up the electric guitar and become the voice singer in what we would call a five-piece band,  his invention of Bluegrass as a driving performance show music and the overwhelming response to the great music he made was exactly a response to the pressure that came with the postwar invention of Country music.  It also reflected finding a space for a string band once the space for string bands playing for dancing was not commercially viable.  Cantwell is still the best to explain how Monroe's invention of bluegrass was a response to the vice the record companies, performance venues, and major radio stations started to put on things across the 1940s.       

Of course, Monroe had the parallel of what Western Swing had done to become massively popular during the same years. In 1945  Bob Wills' had the biggest grossing band in the music industry.  And even in Jazz, the trend over the same period that Monroe created Bluegrass was a shift from big orchestras that made their money playing for dances, to small combos led by virtuoso musicians who thrilled audiences with their solos.

Monroe's changes were hardly unique across the music industry in the post war period.  Still it is amazing that one person could exercise such positive leadership, creativity, and had such a determined grasp on what this music could uniquely offer.   It's really inspiring.

 

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Thanks.  LOL  in the fog of being a bit woosy on a new heart medication, I posted that post and another here where I had no intention of posting.,   I am trying to figure out how to delete it.   Thanks for raising exception to this.  You are exactly right!

Tractor1 - Posted - 02/26/2026:  07:44:29

theory gets a lot of good mileage at this site--but some _not myself- are blessed with exceptional ears--I have a chord book I will have to retrieve from the mess of shelves and try to find it on line--it covers all chords and their necessary percentages in great detail and the great hearing ability of the author becomes obvious

Tractor1 - Posted - 02/26/2026:  12:22:56

here is the book I spoke of--https://archive.org/details/bwb_P8-BQX-942

sometimes special chords are played in such away to align with the movement of a signature phrase--to add a bit--such as walk down part in a turnaround-- so those true notes would get priority -- this is by no means ''advice'' --just my way of seeing things

Julio B - Posted - 02/27/2026:  10:50:42

If you are Bill Keith, they are used often.