rkdjones - Posted - 03/13/2026:  11:24:59

I was looking at the standard notation for Billy in the Lowground. Sources online refer to this piece as being in the key of C, and the last note is C. The standard notation (score, sheet music) has the key signature for the key of F, one flat which is Bb. I am interpreting this to be in the key of C Mixolydian, same notes as in the F major (Ionian) scale, but tonic note is C.

Is this correct?

Is it conventional for people to refer to a piece of modal music as being in one key, but the key signature on the staff is another key.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/13/2026:  11:50:58

The way you described makes for a cleaner looking page by getting rid of all the accidental signs in the music but I prefer it being done by leaving the key signature as is and providing accidentals when the modal pitches are needed in the music itself. That way you can see what the true key is and at a glance that the song is not in the Ionian mode but in some other variant. 

 

Edited by - mmuussiiccaall on 03/13/2026 11:54:16

lature - Posted - 03/13/2026:  12:34:08

I think you're giving the sheet music too much credit.

The chords to Billy that I've seen are C, G and Am. These are the same chords as Foggy Mountain Breakdown (G, D, Em) in the key of G.

Definitely not modal.

Perhaps the transcriber didn't know what they're doing (or didn't care or didn't think it's important).

In the old days, music was transcribed by pros. Today it's the wild west. And with ABC notation, it's a wild mess :-)

250gibson - Posted - 03/13/2026:  13:02:44

I agree, Billy in the lowground is not mixolydian. It is regular old major (Ionian). If it were mixolydian, you would have a Gm chord instead.

However to answer the original posters question, it can be both ways. It is somewhat genre specific and composer/arranger preference.

rkdjones - Posted - 03/13/2026:  14:33:46

Can you explain why it is not Mixolydian. The notes in the scale are C, D, E, F, G, A, Bb, C, the same notes as those in C Mixolydian. Am I not understanding what defines the different modes?

Alex Z - Posted - 03/13/2026:  15:11:03

Can you provide a link to a version that has a Bb in it?

Since one of the chords is G, there would be a B.  But I don't hear a Bb.

Thanks.

rkdjones - Posted - 03/13/2026:  15:39:28

I'm afraid I need to apologize. I can't find the score with the Bb key signature, though I know I saw it. I just started looking at learning it. I suppose someone could be playing it in C Mixolydian, but I can't find it now.

Though my example is not a good one, the question remains about how is modal music normally represented in standard notation? And is it common for people to sometimes just say something is in the key of C, when it might be C Mixolydian, some other mode?

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 03/13/2026:  16:59:06

It seems like it would be even more an issue for a blues, where every chord is a dominant (7th) chord and the third would commonly be flattened. Yet the key signature for a G blues I assume would be one sharp.

Alex Z - Posted - 03/13/2026:  18:29:33

quote:

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Originally posted by rkdjones

I'm afraid I need to apologize. I can't find the score with the Bb key signature, though I know I saw it. I just started looking at learning it. I suppose someone could be playing it in C Mixolydian, but I can't find it now.



Though my example is not a good one, the question remains about how is modal music normally represented in standard notation? And is it common for people to sometimes just say something is in the key of C, when it might be C Mixolydian, some other mode?

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The key signature alone can't determine the mode. Also have to know the tonal center of the music.  Both together determine the "key" -- or tonal center -- and the "mode" -- the specified step sequence of the scale. 

 

Is it normal F major or C mixolidian?  Same key signature.  Is it normal C major or G mixolidian? Same key signature.  The tonal center of the music will determine which. 

 

Some explanations of modes use the white keys of the piano as the sole determination of a mode, and so might conclude that a particular mode is always in the same "key."

 

250gibson - Posted - 03/13/2026:  18:53:44

quote:

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Originally posted by rkdjones

I'm afraid I need to apologize. I can't find the score with the Bb key signature, though I know I saw it. I just started looking at learning it. I suppose someone could be playing it in C Mixolydian, but I can't find it now.



Though my example is not a good one, the question remains about how is modal music normally represented in standard notation? And is it common for people to sometimes just say something is in the key of C, when it might be C Mixolydian, some other mode?

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F major (Ionian) and D minor (aeolian) are notated with the same key signature. It makes the most sense to notate C mixolydian and the other modes the same way.  

 

It is somewhat genre specific. Orchestral scores arranged for a film recording session generally use a blank signature and accidentals on every note that would need one regardless of key and mode. They just play the notes.  

 

Sometimes people just say the key, without any other explanation if the changes are written in numerals, so you know where home is.  Sometimes the mode will be called out if it isn't obivous at first glance, so the comp players know what to do  

trapdoor2 - Posted - 03/13/2026:  19:30:12

Modes aren't typically named in regular sheet music. You don't need it unless you're trying to figure out the chords. Most orchestral players don't care, they play the music as written. The specific mode is unimportant...unless you need it.

Traditional music sometimes lists the mode but often gets it wrong. There's a version in F on The Session. thesession.org/tunes/5135 but although it is notated in F, there are no Bb notes used, and it claims to be in Dm...

rkdjones - Posted - 03/13/2026:  19:46:32

Thanks. That answers my questions. Robert

250gibson - Posted - 03/13/2026:  20:02:48

quote:

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Originally posted by trapdoor2

Modes aren't typically named in regular sheet music. You don't need it unless you're trying to figure out the chords. Most orchestral players don't care, they play the music as written. The specific mode is unimportant...unless you need it.

Traditional music sometimes lists the mode but often gets it wrong. There's a version in F on The Session. thesession.org/tunes/5135 but although it is notated in F, there are no Bb notes used, and it claims to be in Dm...

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That version and tunes like it are mode ambiguous and are what is generally referred to as a modal tune by traditional players.  It is a D minor tune and the A part lacks the 6th degree, so can be considered both Aeolian and Dorian. The B part does have a couple B natural notes which lean it towards the Dorian mode but it is still mostly mode ambiguous.

 

The key signature should be blank on this one, definitely not 1 flat with the Bflats raised to Bnatural with an accidental. 

 

I don't know if this tune is indeed Billy in the Lowground as I always heard that played major, but the analysis is true regardless. 

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/14/2026:  00:35:23

 

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 rkdjones

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here's how you would go around the CIRCLE OF 5THS

Mode Theory

 

Jerry Hatrick - Posted - 03/14/2026:  05:51:24

Yes, whoever thought it was clever to explain modal scales based on the white piano keys, did not do us any favours. It took me a long time to understand that modal scales can be pitched in any key. It’s actually more about the pattern of intervals of course, irrespective of the key chosen.

janolov - Posted - 03/14/2026:  07:38:07

Traditional Tune Archive shows notation for several different version of Billy In The Lowground: tunearch.org/wiki/Billy_in_the_Lowground_(1). All versions are in the key of C and is not modal .

The session.org also shows notation of Billy in The Lowground: thesession.org/tunes/5135 in several different keys. The second version have a b in the key signature, but seems to be i D minor, and this version seems to have another melody than the C version.

The chords used are usually C, G7 and Am, and the use of Am doesn't make it a modal tune. 

Alex Z - Posted - 03/14/2026:  14:35:06

That #2 version which appears to be in d minor is not Billy in the Lowground.  Rather, sounds very much like  Cold Frosty Morning. 

 

Cold Frosty Morning is normally in A minor on fiddle.  Who knows where these posted tunes come from. 

Alex Z - Posted - 03/14/2026:  14:39:53

There are some versions of Billy in the Low Ground (if played in C) that use an F major chord in the second part instead of A minor.