Hi Guys, I’m BB Noob. Just purchased a TB3 FON 8012 – 14, early TB 3 with a very unusual color scheme
. Everything appeared to be there except 1 resonator bolt is missing. Tension hoop and hooks are correct, small coordinator rods, But When I took it apart I was majorly bummed, no ball bearings, springs, or washers, just 24 empty holes.
It does have the early scalloped tonering and the shotgun ring. original presto, I really want to give the Ball Bearing tone a shot.
I’m thinking not all is lost. Ball Bearings, Springs and washers can be got at any industrial supplier. The problem is I have no frame of reference.
I need Ball Bearing sizes. Washer size. Spring specs, Length, turns per inch, thickness, coil diameter. Any help from you all is greatly appreciated. I have pics uploaded in my profile, I'll try to post here. Can't seem to find the upload button.
26 Comments |
 | Dave1climber says:
10/23/2016 10:59:48 PM
At one time I had those dimensions, should I disassemble any of mine I will get those numbers for you.
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 | bpwannab says:
10/24/2016 4:46:53 AM
Thanks very much.
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 | Fathand says:
10/24/2016 5:03:55 AM
This is a very early #. Sorry for the approximate measurements below as mine is currently all together.
Balls should be 3/8" if I remember right, they are same diameter as holes and fit about half way in.
Springs will be hard to find they are very firm compression springs. You cannot compress one with your fingers. About 1/4"-5/16" diameter made of heavy wire perhaps 1/16" or 5/64" thick about 3/4" long.
Washers are same diameter as springs and the top one should have a chamfered hole so the ball sits in it. Mine, #8041-47 has one washer at bottom of spring and 2 on top but I think most only one on top. Originally there would have been a paper disc at the bottom of the hole too. The important thing is that the ball sits about halfway out of the hole so that the tone ring does not touch the rim. This could be adjusted with number of or thickness of washers.
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 | NDJohn says:
10/24/2016 5:27:32 AM
Jim, I'd post an ad in the classifieds. There are occasionally sets running around on the Hangout.
You'll be surprised and pleased at the tone--a bit mellower but no loss of clarity.
Best,
John
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| Dave1climber says:
10/24/2016 6:12:06 AM
Don't forget Ebay and Crag's list.
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| bpwannab says:
10/24/2016 7:19:01 AM
FatHand thank you for the numbers I'm going to try to plug them into the spring calculator at thespringstore.com Any Chance do you know the ID of the spring?
John thanks to you too, that is great idea I will post and add too.
Dave1climber I hittin those too.
I did buy this from a music shop I'm going to call the owner as well.
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| Fathand says:
10/24/2016 12:00:37 PM
Going by memory, the ID of the spring is maybe 1/8" maybe less. The only springs I have ever seen that are similar in compression strength are Indian Motocycle clutch springs. I am talking 1930's-53 Indian Motocycles. These are a little larger though, but if I was making a BB from scratch I might be inclined to use them. jerrygreersengineering.com/par...036074141
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| bpwannab says:
10/24/2016 12:22:16 PM
Thanks Fathand the more info the better. It is funny you mentioned the indian clutch springs, I was thinking old Harley Pan and knuckle springs, I guess great minds think alike ;-)
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| bpwannab says:
10/28/2016 8:50:34 AM
Of course like many others have tried, I found everything quickly (for me at MCMasterCarr.com) except the springs(naturally). Actually I did find some at the online spring stores within what I think is Spec, but they were outrageous in price.
I bought pack of 100 CS 11/32 ball bearings that fit perfectly in the hole and set of stainless steel washers #6 pack of 100 was a very good diameter. I tried SS #8s pack of 100 They were a tag big. All for 11.00 and some change with shipping. Not bad.
According to this hangout archive article, the springs have a rate of 460 ppi at 11/32 od and free length of ¾ inch, I’m thinking that is, that is almost rigid.
hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...12013.pdf
So until I find springs at reasonable price. I have an idea. I’m just wondering any of you all have ever tried this. I found that if I stack the ball bearings in the holes with a combo of washers. From the bottom: 1 washer, 1 bearing, 1 washer, then another bearing, 3 washers, and another bearing. This results a gap the thickness of a nickel, which I read on one the other boards that is approx. desired gap under tension.
In the mean time I thought it might be time for a little science experiment.
Before, I took the banjo back apart. I went into my studio and made some recordings, of the banjo setup with the tonering in, upside down, no bearings, washers, or springs. I will try a recording with the above idea and compare them. Then when I find some springs I will then make another recording and compare all three. My only problem is the banjo is set up as a tenor and I really suck at playing tenor.
If anybody is interested, I’ll post the results when I’m done with a disclaimer warning this banjo player is so bad it might do permanent to your ears :-)
Any comments, suggestions, are very welcome and will be greatly appreciated. Even let me know if somebody already did this.
Thanks
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| Dave1climber says:
10/28/2016 3:03:42 PM
I am wondering where you found the 11/16 inch O.D. and the 3/4 inch free length as I don't see those mentioned in the linked document. Another thought that I had is that you could replace the springs with 3/4 inch metal rod until such time that you can source the correct springs.
Dave
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| bpwannab says:
10/29/2016 7:13:54 AM
One member was kind enough to send me the measurements of the Balls and Springs. He used a drill gauge. The Ball size is actually 21/64 , 11/32 was the closest I could find. The springs gauged in at 11/32 OD X 3/4 Free Length. I calculated the wire thickness from the 460 ppi noted the article. Actually I used an online spring calculator.
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| NDJohn says:
10/29/2016 7:20:11 AM
Jim,
You may get the height of the assembly you need from the stack of washers and bbs, but the whole idea was to equalize the hide-head tension despite changing humidity. Hence, the springs.
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| bpwannab says:
10/29/2016 9:11:57 AM
John,
Agreed. But as an FYI it works pretty good, I assembled it last night. Definitely sounds better.
I still think the springs just might transfer the sound a little differently hence the unique sound. Roger Simonoff was kind enough to send me specs this morning. I asked his permission to post the specs. I'll post when and if he says yes. Some of my spring calculations were off in my prior post. If anybody needs them now just IM me.
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| bpwannab says:
11/3/2016 7:17:40 AM
This is portion of an email thread from Roger Simonoff to me: Here are the highlights if anyone else ever needs the specs. Very nice man and seem very knowledgeable. See Below:
Here are the specs for the ball bearing components:
Ball diameter: .345”
Washers:
Top: .365” x .060” thick with .100 hole in center, hole has chamfered edge to facilitate positioning of ball bearing
Bottom: .365” x .060” thick with .100 hole in center
Spring:
Wire diameter: .075”
Spring height: .750”
Spring diameter: .345”
Compression rating: spring compresses .025” with 40 pound load
Adjustment:
To get equal height, Gibson used paper punch-outs (from paper punch) under bottom washers (between washers and rim) until all balls were at same height. (Some original ball bearing models I have disassembled actually had typewritten marks and portions of letters on punches)
do not remember precisely - that the rating was 440 pounds
Best,
Roger
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picknman says:
11/13/2016 10:22:46 AM
As a BB owner now for over three years I feel very fortunate that everything was intact in my banjo. I am sure that receiving an incomplete pot assy. could be a real bummer. Unfortunately situations like this do occur. I certainly hope you will be able to locate all of the parts needed. I have found nothing lacking in my BB before or after conversion to five string.
Doug J.
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 | gailg64 says:
11/21/2016 9:36:33 AM
When you get it all together, you will not be disappointed. A ballbearing RB has a unique tone: vibrant, complex, & warm. I had an accident with the neck on mine :-( (an original 5) & now have a reproduction Frank Neat replacement neck on it. As much as I loved the look of the funky old peghead, the new one plays like a dream. They sound fantastic with a 5 star or a thick calfskin head.
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| gailg64 says:
11/21/2016 9:37:12 AM
When you get it all together, you will not be disappointed. A ballbearing RB has a unique tone: vibrant, complex, & warm. I had an accident with the neck on mine :-( (an original 5) & now have a reproduction Frank Neat replacement neck on it. As much as I loved the look of the funky old peghead, the new one plays like a dream. They sound fantastic with a 5 star or a thick calfskin head.
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| bpwannab says:
12/8/2016 7:19:44 AM
Update: A hangout member was kind enough to reach out to me and sell me a set of ball bearings, springs, and washers, at a very reasonable price. I also found T&P flange cut 5 string neck on ebay that I fitted to the banjo. I had to plug the holes and re locate the lags, I have it set a about 3 degrees and it fits a 5/8" bridge very nicely.
Now I have a question about heads:
When I look a pictures of other BB conversions, I noticed a bunch have the tension hoop sitting a little below the neck. I'm using a medium crown head and the tension hoop cut away is about level to the finger board. The tenor cut away is not a wide as a 5 string on these old Waverly tension hoops, the tall edge is just touching the first and 5th strings only when I fret the highest note on 1st and 5th strings, I hope I'm explaining this clearly. To recap, When I fret the highest on on first and 5th the string just kisses the tall part of the tension hoop.
I was thinking of trying a high collar head to lower the tension hoop. I don't want to file away any of the metal on the tenor tension hoop to get rid of the buzz
Have any of you tried a high collar head before?
Just wondering if there were any pitfalls ahead. Again any help is greatly appreciated and thanks in advance.
Jim
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 | monstertone says:
4/24/2017 5:01:29 PM
Spring:
Wire diameter: .075”
Spring height: .750”
Spring diameter: .345”
Compression rating: spring compresses .025” with 40 pound load
Due to the very heavy spring rate, I strongly suspect these to be die springs.
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 | hawkaroo says:
5/7/2017 6:22:13 AM
bpwannab,
I have owned and played 8012-12 since the late '80s. I bought it at a music store in Spokane, Washington. It had started life as a TB-3 but had a Gibson RB-800 neck. It was pretty rough and I had it worked over by Bob Givens, a luthier in Coeur d' Alene, Idaho where I lived and I always loved it. By 2013-4 it was pretty well used up and I began to look for someone to restore it. I called Huber's business and they referred my to Chris Cioffi who is in Tennessee. I lived in Columbus, Ohio at that point.
I had had it apart more than a couple times and knew that the springs were all there but a few of the washers and ball bearings had been replaced by off sized ones. Chris informed me that the brass ring that was used in some of these ball bearing banjos to support the metal sleeve was needed in mine but missing.
He searched for one without success and with my agreement fabricated maple attachments to the rim to serve the same function. Without this the neck connection to the rim is not solid and sound suffers. The work was completed in June 2015 if I remember correctly.
You can see and hear my banjo being played on a YouTube video, The Cioffi Mastertone Lab Pre War Day, along with four other Mastertones he had worked on. It is at 11:43 on the video. It sounds great. A few months later I had the occasion to put it in the hands of Arthur Hatfield who struck a few notes, did a double take, and said "that's what a ball bearing banjo is supposed to sound like."
You can tell from the video comparison to a variety of othe types of Mastertone banjos that the ball bearing banjos compare very well
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| hawkaroo says:
5/7/2017 6:25:02 AM
I forgot to mention that when I got 8012-12 the head was autographed by Earl Scruggs. Who knows if he had actually played it.
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| bpwannab says:
5/7/2017 6:57:32 AM
Wow Hawkaroo! Your BB sounds Great!!. I see you our banjos were made in the same batch possibly 2 away from each other. By chance is your resonator still the original finish and if so is it sunburst? You are not the first owner I spoke with who complained about the brass ring being missing. Mine was tool. Luckily I found one. Never let that banjer go!!!
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| hawkaroo says:
5/9/2017 6:41:07 PM
I wish it sounded as good when I play it as when he plays it. Lol. I'm pretty sure it had been refinished when I got it and once since I got it because it was delaminating in a couple spots. It's a typical burgundy color. They'll either bury me with it or the kids will argue over who gets it. Chris did a wonderful job renovating it
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 | bbult says:
5/11/2017 3:03:52 PM
Hi..I am a new BB guy..are their any arched top conversion rings for a 1925 TB3....do they just slide in or do you have to cut the rim? Just wondering as banjo players do.
Thanks...Bill b
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| bpwannab says:
5/12/2017 5:16:43 AM
Hi Bbult
Welcome to the world of Ballbearing owners. I not 100 % sure I understand your question. Are you looking to put a cast archtop on your bb pot? Or are you looking to convert to a flathead?
You should double check with Eric Sullivan. Here is what I know for what it is worth. Early 25 rims were cut differently than the later 25s and 26s. Eric makes a nice drop in conversion ring for the later ball bearings(which makes it a flathead). I don’t think there is anything you can do for an early one other than a major cut. These banjos were only made for 2 years and growing more scarce. Either give the ballbearing sound a chance (I know I like it) or get yourself a 27-29, there are plenty of them still around and the market is soft right now. I just got a 27 style 4 for a very fair price. Now I enjoy both.
I hope this helps feel free to IM me if you have more questions. Take care JP
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| bbult says:
5/15/2017 1:24:16 PM
Im looking at a 27 style 4 now.....reso bad...good neck....what $ value do you est one for???? Thanks?..bill n
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