Irish? Slovak? I remember a CFL coach whose name was O’Billovich

Well, my Broons are heading first to Cleanout Day and its associated media avails, and thence to the golf course. Congratulations to the Buffalo Sabres - they earned the advancement.

I am not disappointed by this season, and am highly optimistic about the next few years. There's talent on the team and talent in the pipeline.

Besides, there's still another month of L'Hockey to play, and then the bidness season - which I find nearly as entertaining as the game itself - kicks into high gear.

This probably isn't Jackie watching the Bruins lose, but I'd like to think it is.

Ai Jackie looks rather morose as the Spoked B’s head for the showers one last time….

Small sample size, true. But if I were to put a modest wager on the final matchup, it would Colorado/Carolina.

And if that happens, they damned well better play one game wearing Nordiques and Whalers sweaters!

Sakic & Francis

The NHL held its annual draft lottery last night. For those unaware, the process is complicated. Teams eligible for the lottery - those that failed to make the playoffs - are randomly assigned a series of four numbers between 1 and 12. The teams with the most suckitude have more number series assigned to them than those that were less suckful.

Then, the ping-pong balls take over - 12 numbered balls dropped into the type of blower machines used by government lotteries and bingo halls nationwide. Four numbers are drawn, in two rounds. If the first four numbers drawn match one of the numbers assigned to your team, you win the first round and the first pick (the second round is similar, although your team can't move up more than ten spots in the lottery).

Here's where stuff gets ugly. The Leafs traded prospect Fraser Minten (who showed beautifully in Boston this year), Czech LD prospect Vashak Blanar (who played very well in Sweden this year and is committed to UMass next season) and a top-five protected first-round pick this year in exchange for Brandon Carlo. Going into the draft, the oddsmakers gave Boston a roughly six-in-ten chance of cashing in on the pick.

The balls were kind to the Leafs. They not only held on to their first round pick - they actually won the lottery (which they had a roughly 5% chance of doing) and will thus pick first. Because the pick was top-five protected and Toronto had made another deal with Philadelphia, the Bruins won't be able to use that pick until 2027 or 2028, when that pick may be a lot less valuable than it was this year.

The Bruins-oriented Twitterverse is aflame this morning. So, near as I can tell without doing a deep dive, is the Vancouver-oriented Twitterverse. You'd think that Gary Bettman walked into both markets and knifed everyone's puppy. Howls of "Fix!" and worse dominate.

It really is quite entertaining, although it's simultaneously rather depressing. I'm left with one conclusion, which is causing some self-doubt:

A lot of hockey fans truly are morons.

I've heard scouting young players referred to as somewhat of a crap shoot.  ^^ makes it sound like management/leadership/?? has made it crap-shoot squared.

Go, 'abs Go!!

Remember the days when scouts would cozy up (ie, ~$100) to families of “maybe” good prospects and get them to sign a “Form C” when the kid was 13 years old ?
As to twitter , Facebook , Reddit , etc peanut gallery rantings, I don’t pay much attention to those keyboard warriors; they are the minority - not representative of the majority, methinks.

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Originally posted by eagleisland

The NHL held its annual draft lottery last night. For those unaware, the process is complicated. Teams eligible for the lottery - those that failed to make the playoffs - are randomly assigned a series of four numbers between 1 and 12. The teams with the most suckitude have more number series assigned to them than those that were less suckful.

Then, the ping-pong balls take over - 12 numbered balls dropped into the type of blower machines used by government lotteries and bingo halls nationwide. Four numbers are drawn, in two rounds. If the first four numbers drawn match one of the numbers assigned to your team, you win the first round and the first pick (the second round is similar, although your team can't move up more than ten spots in the lottery).

Here's where stuff gets ugly. The Leafs traded prospect Fraser Minten (who showed beautifully in Boston this year), Czech LD prospect Vashak Blanar (who played very well in Sweden this year and is committed to UMass next season) and a top-five protected first-round pick this year in exchange for Brandon Carlo. Going into the draft, the oddsmakers gave Boston a roughly six-in-ten chance of cashing in on the pick.

The balls were kind to the Leafs. They not only held on to their first round pick - they actually won the lottery (which they had a roughly 5% chance of doing) and will thus pick first. Because the pick was top-five protected and Toronto had made another deal with Philadelphia, the Bruins won't be able to use that pick until 2027 or 2028, when that pick may be a lot less valuable than it was this year.

The Bruins-oriented Twitterverse is aflame this morning. So, near as I can tell without doing a deep dive, is the Vancouver-oriented Twitterverse. You'd think that Gary Bettman walked into both markets and knifed everyone's puppy. Howls of "Fix!" and worse dominate.

It really is quite entertaining, although it's simultaneously rather depressing. I'm left with one conclusion, which is causing some self-doubt:

A lot of hockey fans truly are morons.

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Skip ......... don't know if it happens in hockey, but it does in college baseball.  You mentioned that one of the players had committed to Umass for next year.  In college baseball it is almost counterproductive for a college to sign too good of a player, as these guys commt to a college before the major league draft.  Then the draft comes and if a high school player is taken in the first round, or even a high round, the likelihood is that they will sign a pro contract and never set foot on the college campus.  I suspect it is the same in hockey.

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Originally posted by BanjoLink

 

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Skip ......... don't know if it happens in hockey, but it does in college baseball.  You mentioned that one of the players had committed to Umass for next year.  In college baseball it is almost counterproductive for a college to sign too good of a player, as these guys commt to a college before the major league draft.  Then the draft comes and if a high school player is taken in the first round, or even a high round, the likelihood is that they will sign a pro contract and never set foot on the college campus.  I suspect it is the same in hockey.

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It's actually not the same thing at all.

The best analogy I can give is that high-ranking NCAA teams are like the Service Academies - West Point, Annapolis, etc. The alternative is national development programs like the CHL and the US Development program, which is sort of like enlisting. There are analogs to those in Europe. Bottom line is that you can become an officer by enlisting and going to OCS, but going to a top-tier NCAA hockey program is widely considered more of a fast-track development step.

If a kid ages out of a development team program and hasn't been drafted, their options are pretty limited. Draft age is 18, so some might get lucky and immediately get a contract at some level of pro hockey, here or in Europe. But it's the rare player - they exist, but the numbers are vanishingly small - who make the jump from draft to the NHL almost immediately.

Enter NCAA (and the rules about entry, particularly from Canada, are somewhat arcane and complicated). College hockey enables young players to develop in competition with bigger, faster and more experienced players without being chucked directly into the pros. It's actually become a favored option, and the NHL teams are highly supportive of the idea of their selections gaining experience at that level. There's a kid drafted by the Bruin a couple of seasons ago who had a breakout year at Boston College last year; odds are that he's ready for the pro ranks. But both he and the Bruins agreed that another season (junior year) at BC would be better for his development over the long haul.

So yes, if a player's development at the college level is quick enough, they may sign a pro contract after one or two seasons of NCAA experience. Last year the Bruins drafted a kid named James Hagens; he had just finished his freshman year at BC. Once his sophomore season was done he skated half a dozen games or so in AHL Providence before signing his entry level contract with NHL Boston.

So yes, many will come out without a four-year degree. But if they get into an NCAA program they almost invariably stay at least a year.

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Originally posted by eagleisland

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Originally posted by BanjoLink

 

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Skip ......... don't know if it happens in hockey, but it does in college baseball.  You mentioned that one of the players had committed to Umass for next year.  In college baseball it is almost counterproductive for a college to sign too good of a player, as these guys commt to a college before the major league draft.  Then the draft comes and if a high school player is taken in the first round, or even a high round, the likelihood is that they will sign a pro contract and never set foot on the college campus.  I suspect it is the same in hockey.

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It's actually not the same thing at all.

The best analogy I can give is that high-ranking NCAA teams are like the Service Academies - West Point, Annapolis, etc. The alternative is national development programs like the CHL and the US Development program, which is sort of like enlisting. There are analogs to those in Europe. Bottom line is that you can become an officer by enlisting and going to OCS, but going to a top-tier NCAA hockey program is widely considered more of a fast-track development step.

If a kid ages out of a development team program and hasn't been drafted, their options are pretty limited. Draft age is 18, so some might get lucky and immediately get a contract at some level of pro hockey, here or in Europe. But it's the rare player - they exist, but the numbers are vanishingly small - who make the jump from draft to the NHL almost immediately.

Enter NCAA (and the rules about entry, particularly from Canada, are somewhat arcane and complicated). College hockey enables young players to develop in competition with bigger, faster and more experienced players without being chucked directly into the pros. It's actually become a favored option, and the NHL teams are highly supportive of the idea of their selections gaining experience at that level. There's a kid drafted by the Bruin a couple of seasons ago who had a breakout year at Boston College last year; odds are that he's ready for the pro ranks. But both he and the Bruins agreed that another season (junior year) at BC would be better for his development over the long haul.

So yes, if a player's development at the college level is quick enough, they may sign a pro contract after one or two seasons of NCAA experience. Last year the Bruins drafted a kid named James Hagens; he had just finished his freshman year at BC. Once his sophomore season was done he skated half a dozen games or so in AHL Providence before signing his entry level contract with NHL Boston.

So yes, many will come out without a four-year degree. But if they get into an NCAA program they almost invariably stay at least a year.

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Skip ..... thanks for the information.  It soulnd like the NHL is more like NCAA college football.  The NHL, as you have explained it, is like the NFL.  It is not a developmental league, so they are not looking to bring hockey players to the "big leagues" and develop them.  They are looking for guys that can come in and play at that level.  That is wht college football players are not eligible for the drasft until they have been in a college program for three years, or at the age they would have been in college for 3 years.  Baseball is sort of like that, except is a player was exceptional enough they could go directly to the big leagues, but that rarely happens, but rather than using college baseball as their farm system, they have all levels of minor leagues teams where they get them ready for the nig leasgue.  Of course, you already know all of this.  The exception, in baseball, is that these young players can be drafted, and paid big bucks and never see a college campus, but still be developed in the minors.  Although the first round draft choices that sign (most do) go to the minors, they are like you mention the service academies, as they are fast tracked to the majors, mainly becaus ethey have a lot of money invested in them and everything they do is geared to getting them up as fast as practical.

I have alot of firends that were drafted out of high school or college that hung around for a good many years in the minors.  One was a utility infielder/outfielder in the Pirates organization, about 5'10, 170 lbs., moderately fast, good hitter and he happened one season to get a new locker mate.  The guy was 6'5, 230 lbs., faster, a much better arm, and better hitter than my friend.  His name was Dave Parker.  My friend knew that the writing was on the wall regarding his future with the Pirates.  Same thing happened to my friend who played two years at Clemson at 3rd base and was drafted by the Phillies..  When it came time to be promoted to AA with the Phillies, they told him they had signed another player whom the had promised would play 3rd at the AA affiliate.  The guy they had promised was named Mike Schmidt.  The rest, so they say, is history!

Somewhat related is the Phil Esposito story who signed a Form C with the Chicago Blackhawks when he was 13. He went to Jr. B at 16 , then in his last year of Junior eligibility at 19 made the St. Catharines TeePees roster. He struggled to score points and was labeled too slow, and was just about ready to hang’em up and go back to the Soo, but then Ray Cullen , the first line centre, got injured ànd they inserted Phil in his place. All of a sudden he found his game and ended the season riding high. On to the Central League the next year and then to the big club in Chicago. (of course this all took place in 1962-3 long before things changed as to recruiting and development of players)

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Originally posted by BanjoLink

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Skip ..... thanks for the information.  It soulnd like the NHL is more like NCAA college football.  The NHL, as you have explained it, is like the NFL.  It is not a developmental league, so they are not looking to bring hockey players to the "big leagues" and develop them.  They are looking for guys that can come in and play at that level.  (snip)

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There ARE some differences, though. Hockey players are eligible for the draft by NHL teams at age 18 - much younger than NFL prospects. There are some arcane rules related to how long the drafting team holds their rights depending on where they're from - for example, some European players and some Canadian ones can be returned to the draft after two or three years, or become free agents. But if any of those have subsequently gone on to the NHL, I haven't heard about it. Everyone else, and the team holds their rights for seven years, after which they can become free agents. And there ARE guys who went undrafted or were free agents that actually made it to the NHL.

You COULD think about NCAA hockey as equivalent to NCAA football, but the big difference is that the NFL doesn't have development leagues under the ausipices of the big clubs. There's really no minor league football of any consequence, unless you count the CFL. With hockey, almost all NHL teams have American Hockey League affiliates, which serve as 1) a development league for prospects, 2) a talent reservoir for the big clubs, and 3) standalone businesses in their own right. A draftee can go to college for a year (or two, three or four). At that point, they can be signed exclusively by the AHL team or sign a contract with the parent club. Most of those contracts are what are called two-way contracts; this gives the team the option to play them at either the NHL or AHL level (the AHL starting salary is about $80K, which is about 10% that of an NHL entry contract). Many of these players play several seasons developing in the AHL before getting a look-see with the big club, although a small (and very talented) group goes straight to the show. There's another league, too - the ECHL - which is a step below the AHL, and players can be sent there as well. Some of those guys have to take second jobs, because the teams are located in really small markets and pay doodly squat.

So it's really closer to MLB n practice. In baseball, you have Single-A, Double-A and Triple-A as development/talent reservoirs. In the NFL, there IS no development league - they count on the college system to do that, and their talent reservoirs are pretty much limited to their own practice squads and whatever leftover free agents that didn't get a deal are available.

There's more to it, of course, but that's the gist.

Many Canadian Major Junior teams have had players who jumped right to the NHL,, McDavid, Bedard, and many others

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Originally posted by eagleisland

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Originally posted by BanjoLink

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Skip ..... thanks for the information.  It soulnd like the NHL is more like NCAA college football.  The NHL, as you have explained it, is like the NFL.  It is not a developmental league, so they are not looking to bring hockey players to the "big leagues" and develop them.  They are looking for guys that can come in and play at that level.  (snip)

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There ARE some differences, though. Hockey players are eligible for the draft by NHL teams at age 18 - much younger than NFL prospects. There are some arcane rules related to how long the drafting team holds their rights depending on where they're from - for example, some European players and some Canadian ones can be returned to the draft after two or three years, or become free agents. But if any of those have subsequently gone on to the NHL, I haven't heard about it. Everyone else, and the team holds their rights for seven years, after which they can become free agents. And there ARE guys who went undrafted or were free agents that actually made it to the NHL.

You COULD think about NCAA hockey as equivalent to NCAA football, but the big difference is that the NFL doesn't have development leagues under the ausipices of the big clubs. There's really no minor league football of any consequence, unless you count the CFL. With hockey, almost all NHL teams have American Hockey League affiliates, which serve as 1) a development league for prospects, 2) a talent reservoir for the big clubs, and 3) standalone businesses in their own right. A draftee can go to college for a year (or two, three or four). At that point, they can be signed exclusively by the AHL team or sign a contract with the parent club. Most of those contracts are what are called two-way contracts; this gives the team the option to play them at either the NHL or AHL level (the AHL starting salary is about $80K, which is about 10% that of an NHL entry contract). Many of these players play several seasons developing in the AHL before getting a look-see with the big club, although a small (and very talented) group goes straight to the show. There's another league, too - the ECHL - which is a step below the AHL, and players can be sent there as well. Some of those guys have to take second jobs, because the teams are located in really small markets and pay doodly squat.

So it's really closer to MLB n practice. In baseball, you have Single-A, Double-A and Triple-A as development/talent reservoirs. In the NFL, there IS no development league - they count on the college system to do that, and their talent reservoirs are pretty much limited to their own practice squads and whatever leftover free agents that didn't get a deal are available.

There's more to it, of course, but that's the gist.

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NHL sounds like a combination ofcollege football and minor league baseball, taking a little from each with a little NBA thrown in.  The NBA has two-way contracts so players signed with a particular team can play for the parent NBA team or go down to the G-league affiliate.  This happens when a front line player gets hurt or suspended or whatever.  They also just don't want potential NBA players sitting on the bench all season with no playing time.

We have an ECHL team here in Greenville (or I know they used to be in that league)..... the Greenville Swamp Rabbits, which are an affiliate of the LA KIngs.  I think they play pretty good hockey, but my eye is nothing like you ardent fans.  In that respect, they sound a lot like MLB farm teams where minor league players don't make diddly squat, unless of course they were high draft picks and signed big contracts and are only in the minors for some seasoning and development.

When I was a teen I’d buy “The Hockey News” and check out the Eastern League standings and who played for who. Some of the St. Catharines juniors ended up toiling in that blood & guts league, and I remember teams in Greensboro , Charlotte, Jacksonville, Roanoke, etc. (no team from Hilton Head, however ;-)

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Originally posted by BanjoLink

 

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NHL sounds like a combination ofcollege football and minor league baseball, taking a little from each with a little NBA thrown in.  The NBA has two-way contracts so players signed with a particular team can play for the parent NBA team or go down to the G-league affiliate.  This happens when a front line player gets hurt or suspended or whatever.  They also just don't want potential NBA players sitting on the bench all season with no playing time.

We have an ECHL team here in Greenville (or I know they used to be in that league)..... the Greenville Swamp Rabbits, which are an affiliate of the LA KIngs.  I think they play pretty good hockey, but my eye is nothing like you ardent fans.  In that respect, they sound a lot like MLB farm teams where minor league players don't make diddly squat, unless of course they were high draft picks and signed big contracts and are only in the minors for some seasoning and development.

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Good comment. Let me offer a slightly different analogy just to mix things up even further: the difference between the NHL and the AHL is somewhat akin to that between the PGA Tour, the Korn-Ferry Tour, and the PGA-Europe and Asia equivalents. All of those players are trying to get to the big PGA tour, and are grinding it out in lesser leagues hoping to get their shot. (I say this as one who abandoned golf for Very Practical Reasons, but as one who still greatly respects the game).

ECHL is indeed fun hockey to watch - when I was in Maine, I'd sometimes go to Maine Mariners games. They were in Portland, about 20 minutes from my house, and they played in a 6,000 seat arena that was rarely more than 3/4 full, and the best seats in the house cost $20. It was still a great time. The Mariners are the ECHL affiliate of the Bruins.

Now, I mostly go to Providence Bruins games. They're the AHL affiliate of the Boston Bruins. And it's really fun hockey. That arena seats about 14,000, is usually about 3/4 full, with an average ticket price of about $30 (it'll cost you at least $100/butt for bad-angle nosebleed seats to watch the Bruins play in Boston, and you'll pay a boatload more for really good seats). In Providence, you can see NHL-bound youngsters and guys who may get the occasional game at the NHL level but who'll never be quite good enough to make it to the show full time. And guys who will never make the show and are trying to hang on to playing at a comparitively high level as long as they can, and making the rent in doing so.

Know how good some of those Korn-Ferry guys are, but you know they'll never be able to stick on the main PGA tour? Same thing when you look at the career AHL guys compared to the talented pluggers who manage to break through and stick in the NHL. The truly brilliant youngsters who play in the AHL don't tend to stay there for more than a season or two. They either move up or become trade bait. Boston picked up a really good young center from Toronto last year at the trade deadline. He'd been mostly in the AHL but everyone knew he was coming on.

And most of THOSE guys, good as they are, just don't have what the truly exceptional guys do (or did)... in golf, think of the rare talents of guys like Scheffler, or Rory, or Jack or Tiger in their prime. The guys so far beyond what even truly excellent players can do as to make what they do seem other-worldly.

So despite hockey being a team game as opposed to a (mostly) individual game, that's an analogy that works.The excellent are the excellent. And the brilliant need to compete against the excellent in order to prove their brilliance. Both golf, and hockey, offer that.

The fun with the development process with all of them is looking at a talented kid and trying to figure out whether that player is simply really good, or potentially a world-beater.

Thanks Skip ..... good analogy with the golfers. Funny sometimes these golfers look like world beaters coming out of college and several years later you have never heard of them, while others, like Scotty, take several years before they become household names. I guess the same with hockey players. In an earlier thread or post Phil Esposito was mentioned as one who was not deemed particularly special until he got a chance to prove it when he came up from the lower division. The bottom line is that all of they guys that make it to the top are elite .......some just "eliter" than others!

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Originally posted by BanjoLink

Thanks Skip ..... good analogy with the golfers. Funny sometimes these golfers look like world beaters coming out of college and several years later you have never heard of them, while others, like Scotty, take several years before they become household names. I guess the same with hockey players. In an earlier thread or post Phil Esposito was mentioned as one who was not deemed particularly special until he got a chance to prove it when he came up from the lower division. The bottom line is that all of they guys that make it to the top are elite .......some just "eliter" than others!

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It is VERY much the same. Sometimes a hot prospect gets drafted in the first round and never quite makes it. Other times, someone taken in later rounds becomes a superstar. Brad Marchand comes to mind - third round draft pick, shrimp of a guy with a major chip on his shoulder and anger management problems. One of the most controversial players ever to lace them up, hated by everyone except the fan base of the team he plays for, where he's loved.

Chuck pointed out that there are players who've jumped straight from Canadian Juniors to the NHL, and this is indeed true. In almost every draft there are one or two kids who are so good at the age of 18 that they can go straight to the NHL. These players are the exception, rather than the rule. Also worth noting that highly talented players sometimes get accepted into Division 1 NCAA programs at the age of 17, coming out of either Canadian juniors or the US Development program. Again, the exception, rather than the rule.

I went to school with a couple of pretty good college baseball players. One was a shortstop; the other was a third baseman. Of the two, the shortstop was a much better hitter. He was a college All-American with a batting average well above .400. He came up briefly with the Mets, but he didn't last. The other guy turned out to be a decent major league third baseman. His name was Mike Schmidt.

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Originally posted by RB3

I went to school with a couple of pretty good college baseball players. One was a shortstop; the other was a third baseman. Of the two, the shortstop was a much better hitter. He was a college All-American with a batting average well above .400. He came up briefly with the Mets, but he didn't last. The other guy turned out to be a decent major league third baseman. His name was Mike Schmidt.

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Yes ..... that Mike Schmidt dude was pretty good.  Thanks to him, my high school buddy, told the Phillies minor league system that he was quitting rather than stay in Single A another year because they had promised that Schmidt guy that he would play third on their AA affiliate ......... after saying my buddy would have a shot at it.  Just guessing it would not have been much of a competition.

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Originally posted by chuckv97

Remember the days when .... <snip>

I think there were/are/?? some advantages to letting the cream rise to the top rather than forcing it, but ........ ??

^^^^ oh, I wasn’t saying that was a good thing,, just reminiscing

What an absolutely bush league piece of b.s. ,,, this guy belongs in the old Eastern League ,, what a jerk, and with 2 seconds left they let the clock run out and so no penalty on the play. BUSH !!

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