It's my thoughts that newbies don't know that improvisation is what they are aiming for, or should be, when they take up the banjo. Many folk think there is only one way to play a song. Some have played piano or some other instrument where they used musical notation and played it note for note.

Most newbies don't understand transposing and don't know about chord sequence for a song.

It's all a learning situation. As they learn the basics and go on to bigger and better playing, start going to jams and realizing that songs are not played note for note, then they start learning about breaks/improv.

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Originally posted by Nopix

Why do people want to to sound just like the record?

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I don't want to necessarily "sound just like the record", but I'm satisfied when I can play along with the record so whatever I'm playing makes a good duet.

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Originally posted by Texasbanjo

It's my thoughts that newbies don't know that improvisation is what they are aiming for, or should be, when they take up the banjo. Many folk think there is only one way to play a song. Some have played piano or some other instrument where they used musical notation and played it note for note.

Most newbies don't understand transposing and don't know about chord sequence for a song.

It's all a learning situation. As they learn the basics and go on to bigger and better playing, start going to jams and realizing that songs are not played note for note, then they start learning about breaks/improv.

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Well said, as usual.

I don't consider changing keys and maybe leaving out the transitional chords, improvising. I don't want three pages of splitting hairs. This stems from a person teaching (not banjo) beginners songs by request. Each tune ridiculously simple, but he has to put in all the fluff.  I think I may understand the reason, but it seems to not teach how to fish, but to sell fish. Savvy?

I think often the goal is to study and emulate the playing of an idol and in the process end up with a bit of the feeling of their playing.

I agree that the best place to end up is being a player a unique sound. However, one way to get to a specfic sound is to follow your inspirations and learn breaks note-for-note.

Jim Mills talked about spending years trying to get the sound of Earl's original cut on Foggy Mountain Breakdown. Jim's playing didn't sound exactly like Earl, but his playing, imo, had the tone and attitude of Earl and the other legends who emulated him.

Not "everybody" wants to sound like ___________*.  Some of us just want to play something that Joe Schmuck would recognize as bluegrass banjo.    I've not heard anybody else play (?) like I do [3,2,4,1/3,2,4,1/3,2,4,1/3,2,4,1/etc./etc./etc./etc.] and I do concede that some people [not banjo players] think I can play banjo, but I'm not convinced.  I like Carl's "play along" objective, but if history is any indication, it ain't in the cards for me.  Fwiw, I'm not complaining or looking for referrals to a course, teacher, method [been there, done that]... just giving my c'est la vie drivel/observations.

After some prompting from a fellow jammer, I got a music teacher to assess my "vocal range."  Apparently it's G2 <> E3, and as I understand things it's about 1/2 of what is considered "normal."  All told, learning about vocal range, the possibility of expanding my range, singing in "different" keys, etc. has probably done more harm than good to this point ..... created mucho doubt, unanswered questions, etc.  Of course, YMMV. 

* And who is this Earl fellow that everybody but me seems to be on a first-name basis with?

Edit: But, but, but, lest anybody think I'm totally incompetent, I can do the 3.2.4.1/etc. in a couple of keys besides open "G". 

Trying to sound just like the record is how you learn how to listen better.

Over the years, I've developed my own style, and don't sound like Earl or J.D. or Ralph or... whoever. I sound like me. I've picked up ideas from all the above mentioned and many others and have incorporated what I liked about their playing into mine. I doubt I play a song the same way twice, I just let the fingers and brain decide what to do.

Other than fiddle tunes, I seldom play note for note and if I can improvise on fiddle tunes I'll do that, too. It's all a matter of interpretation of the song, not sounding like whoever.

Beats me why some folks want to re-invent the wheel. I probably sound like any average bluegrass banjo player , a lot of Scruggs, a smattering of Keith, and I’m good to go. If one sings a well-known song but changes the flavour/words/chords too much it can be fun for the player but audiences raise eyebrows. I don't think I have "my own style". 

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Originally posted by Texasbanjo

It's my thoughts that newbies don't know that improvisation is what they are aiming for, or should be, when they take up the banjo. Many folk think there is only one way to play a song. Some have played piano or some other instrument where they used musical notation and played it note for note.

Most newbies don't understand transposing and don't know about chord sequence for a song.

It's all a learning situation. As they learn the basics and go on to bigger and better playing, start going to jams and realizing that songs are not played note for note, then they start learning about breaks/improv.

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An interesting read, texasbanjo. As a newbie, I'm not so sure improvisation is what I should be aiming for with regards to taking up the banjo (maybe that day will come, or maybe it'll never come) but I think it's a pretty big generalisation, re newbies, to say what you did. Similarly, newbies and transposing. I won't offer my generalisations re newbies, but I picked this wonderful instrument up to try and learn - and retain - some stuff, totally new stuff to me, whether it be a few bars or a slightly longer piece...and hopefully make a quite pleasant sound more often than not. As for those of us learning alone - me, with no other musical instrument background, and starting at a later age - with no jams or anything similar to attend, I guess note for note, or as good as can be, is all I can hope for. Just my two cents' worth.

regards

GS

So rolling chords and singing Brakeman Blues or Visions of Mother, or 50 other songs ain't gettin' it?
I'm supposed to devote my life to something I can't get?

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Originally posted by Owen

Not "everybody" wants to sound like ___________*.  Some of us just want to play something that Joe Schmuck would recognize as bluegrass banjo.    I've not heard anybody else play (?) like I do [3,2,4,1/3,2,4,1/3,2,4,1/3,2,4,1/etc./etc./etc./etc.] and I do concede that some people [not banjo players] think I can play banjo, but I'm not convinced.  I like Carl's "play along" objective, but if history is any indication, it ain't in the cards for me.  Fwiw, I'm not complaining or looking for referrals to a course, teacher, method [been there, done that]... just giving my c'est la vie drivel/observations.

After some prompting from a fellow jammer, I got a music teacher to assess my "vocal range."  Apparently it's G2 <> E3, and as I understand things it's about 1/2 of what is considered "normal."  All told, learning about vocal range, the possibility of expanding my range, singing in "different" keys, etc. has probably done more harm than good to this point ..... created mucho doubt, unanswered questions, etc.  Of course, YMMV. 

* And who is this Earl fellow that everybody but me seems to be on a first-name basis with?

Edit: But, but, but, lest anybody think I'm totally incompetent, I can do the 3.2.4.1/etc. in a couple of keys besides open "G". 

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Who has to tell you, yes, you can play?  (who do you trust?)

Y'know some folks are just plain spoken like you and me. Some folk know tricky words and how to use them. We still all get to the same place. 

Mainly I trust me.   

If it’s a song, it should suit the range of the singer.
If it’s a fiddle tune, fiddler calls the key.
If it’s bluegrass, default to B.

I hate B. So did Kenny Baker.

There are many ways to play the banjo (or any instrument) such as learning a note for note from tablature or a recording and staying with that for the rest of your life,learning from tab or recording first and letting that become the foundation for your own improv.
Once you learn the piece as played by someone else there's nothing stopping you from playing it differently every time.

i like exploring on my own terms and turning a song into my version of it that still adheres to the foundation.I don't look to play something the same way as anyone else.
I turn it into "my own".

I hardly ever play something the same way,twice.

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Originally posted by steve davis

There are many ways to play the banjo (or any instrument) such as learning a note for note from tablature or a recording and staying with that for the rest of your life,learning from tab or recording first and letting that become the foundation for your own improv.
Once you learn the piece as played by someone else there's nothing stopping you from playing it differently every time.

i like exploring on my own terms and turning a song into my version of it that still adheres to the foundation.I don't look to play something the same way as anyone else.
I turn it into "my own".

I hardly ever play something the same way,twice.

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One Stephen to another, I'm with you, 100%.

This thread is a little aged and I was a little gruff.  Everyone had to start somewhere at sometime. Folks were sure supporting and understanding with me. But I get frustrated reading all the analysis paralysis. I don't know how many mistakes I made today at the weekly jam. You never know the next tune, and sometimes you hear the key, otherwise you have to find it. I love the challenge. I've never been close to being shunned. For the love of all that's holy, just play. If it ain't right, fix it. Keep playing. 

wadr, I’m of the mind that if a jammer doesn’t know the tune he or she should lay back , just try finger the chords as they go by without playing, then step in here and there with some vamps on the parts they’re sure of,  and so on til they get it,, which could be at a future jam on the same tune. Nothing’s worse than 5 people jumping in and playing wrong chords and bad rhythm. As far as I’m concerned they’re disrespectful of the the person that’s leading the song.
How’s dat fer grumpy ….

It's been pretty well covered here, about learning and trying to sound just like the record. The effort built into that can help us understand the tunes. For most of us, learning to improvise, create our own breaks and be able to jam with others takes some time.
My only experience with studio recording came fairly early in my banjo journey. The man in the booth doing the recording explained how to correct things by running the tape (yes, tape in those days) back and playing along with yourself. He punches you in where the problem is. I thought; no problem! I play these tunes the same way, note for note, every time.
Well, it didn't take me long to find out that I couldn't play a break note for note no matter how I tried! Somehow, variation and improvisation had crept into my playing without me knowing about it.
All that is to say, for many of us it is a progression from imitation to creation of our own music. I consider it a great skill to be able to play it like the record when desired, but also it is great to be able to play as an individual.

If this de-volves into a jam talk, on my head be it. (full-on jammer since 2003)
But not knowing the key slows me down greatly. I really have to wait for the 1. If I don't get it the 2nd time around it gets worse, obviously. I jam with a bunch of (guitar)capo captains. Who knows what chord they're playing just by looking? I do know, odd fret means a sharp or flat key. (but maybe not Bb)
Anyway, worse than that? I can't hear myself if I palm mute. And if I'm on a bass, the wrong note sits like a turd, to me. I think it sounds rude when people yell, "KEY?" So what's worse?

Some of my favorite "lessons" I learned from my "ear only" playing Dad were his examples of "feeling" the keys and chord progressions to songs that hadn't been heard,before.

We go to jams with an open mind and aren't surprised to hear anyone ask what the key is.
It's a very easy question to answer.
We state the key and mention any "off-chords" if necessary before we start.Just to prevent any struggles for anyone;especially for those that aren't familiar with the tune.

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Originally posted by Nopix

If this de-volves into a jam talk, on my head be it. (full-on jammer since 2003)
But not knowing the key slows me down greatly. I really have to wait for the 1. If I don't get it the 2nd time around it gets worse, obviously. I jam with a bunch of (guitar)capo captains. Who knows what chord they're playing just by looking? I do know, odd fret means a sharp or flat key. (but maybe not Bb)
Anyway, worse than that? I can't hear myself if I palm mute. And if I'm on a bass, the wrong note sits like a turd, to me. I think it sounds rude when people yell, "KEY?" So what's worse?

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Don't  yell, just quietly ask the person next to you what key.  You might also mention when it's time to stop the music and take a food/drink break that you have a problem with the key to songs and it would be a great help if whoever was lead off would let the newbies know the key.  

The song leader should state the key

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Originally posted by chuckv97

The song leader should state the key

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... and there should be legislation* that 2-chord songs/tunes are announced as such. That way schmucks like me wouldn't spend so much effort anticipating the 3rd. chord ............ that never comes.  

* provincial IF the feds are reluctant/unwilling.

If someone doesn't state the key at our jams 2 or 3 people speak right up and tell them to do so.
We just want everybody to have an easy time of it.

Most of us schmucks, legislated or not, announce the chord progression, key, Nashville number system if capo’ing is required, and if the kickoff is a standard 1,5,1. ( if someone says they’re gonna play it just like Earl we sigh and mumble “ok then” )