When I first started I had this problem with the basic down stroke. I practiced either (I can't remember which) an hour a day for three months. or three hours a day for one month. At the end I was doing what I call a ditty-bum rhythm. I think that's the same as yours. I kept trying, and in a few days I corrected it. I've help a number of people get started on clawhammer. Some get the bum-ditty quickly, like in a week, while others are slow like I was. I think the answer is to keep going when your rhythm sound wrong. You at least have your fingers moving close to correct, so don't give up. Take a break and jump in again.

Ron -

I'm not too far from you, in Monteagle. While not a teacher, I consider myself an intermediate level player. If you're ever in the area and would like to get together let me know. Always looking for opportunities to play with others. You can contact me at mjrichaud at gmail.

Mickey

Human made music tends to be messy.

"Bum-Dit-Ty" is a very simplified rhythm pattern that is similar to the "Boom-Chick-a" rhythm of basic Guitar playing. The problem is that once you move from simple rhythm to actually playing a tune, all those regular repeating patterns tend to go out the window. You can Bum-Dit-Ty over any chord pattern and still be playing along with the rest of the jam...but you're not playing the actual tune, you're playing rhythm backup. Nothing wrong with that...heck, it's 98% of backup guitar.

The instant you start incorporating the melody, your movements have to change. Accented notes occur...just about anywhere, note values change, etc., etc. Hammer-ons, slides and Pull-offs happen. This is all part of the learning process.

I would recommend picking a very short, repetitive tune and learning it note for note...not learning the Bum-Dit-Ty but learning to hit each note as necessary. My break thru tune (40+yrs ago) was "Old Jack Gillie" from the Miles Krassen book "Clawhammer Banjo". It has a 4-measure A part, a 4-measure B part and two 4-measure variation parts...and they're all very similar. Pick a part and learn it by rote...don't think about the Bum-Dit-Ty, just hit the notes as they are shown. No chords, nothing fancy. Lather, Rinse and Repeat. It is in "double D" tuning (aDADE) but you can tune to "double C" (gCGCD) and do the same thing without a capo.

Here it is played slowly:

https://youtu.be/_wFbAbkPXDg?si=rwlEICztySkiuW1h

(He actually hits a note in the B1 part Tab (1st string, 4th fret) that is a printer error. It sounds sour and was printed on the wrong line of the Tab. Should be 2nd string, 4th fret).

Then, pick another part...do it all again. Then play both parts one-after-the-other...and you're playing the whole tune. The rest is just variations.

Clawhammer Banjo (Oak Publications, 1974) is a great (seminal) book which has a rare, few quirks. I've learned a lot of the tunes, modified some and just never attempted many...or found a version I liked better. If you have it, try it again. If you don't have it...it really should be on everyone's shelf. 

The basic clawhammer technique is in there and when you get the accents going, it will emerge (and the Bum-Dit-Ty can also show up after you take control of the tune).

You might consider rethinking your entire approach to learning music. There is the classic approach of working with a teacher, & following a regiment of proper position, reading music, fingering, scales, keys, exercises, etudes, & practicing increasingly complex compositions. Then, there is the large industry of "shortcuts to learning music". It sounds like you are stuck in, but dissatisfied w/, the "quick, shortcut" approach.  You might be surprised that this deep foundation might facilitate your entre into various styles, including bum ditty bum ditty.

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Originally posted by nealsotn

 Second plea for help.   I've been trying for years(!) now, and just don't get it. Every time I've tried to get started I become frustrated, put the banjo down, and walk-away just as I did again this morning...  Start with bumtitty I, IV, V chords and, separately, choose a melody/tune from tablature; "Cripple Creek" is a good example.

 I've subscribed to (and given up on) several online courses here on BH, have a modest library of intro/tutorial books, and watched too many YouTube videos, but they all go wacky when transitioning from the stand-alone bum-dit-ty into a rif or song.  They all switch from bum-dit-ty to bum-ty-dit, which breaks everything, and i can't get any further.  The bumtitty teaches rhythm/pace and that's about it.

 Does anybody know of any videos where they actually practice what they preach- i.e., follow-through in a consistent manner from introductory bum-dit-ty into rifs or songs?  Its either that, or I need to find an alternate approach or mental-model leading to a (likely simple) breakthrough.  The Brainjo system is a reasonable philosophy.

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A)  Pick a simple tune that already resonates with you (whistle/sing it any time off the top of your head or note 2), find simple melody tablature and own it.  "Own it" means the ability to play the tune at proper speed while reading subtitles and tracking plot.  "Own it" also means the ability to sing aloud the lyrics while playing at full speed  Repeat. 

B)  Play with others.  Learn the I, IV, V and sometimes VII chords in standard C or G and double-C tuning (yes, G tuning and partial chords is good enough).  Own this to the level of changing every beat at speed.

note 1:  Jumper, Perlman and Kohler are my most trusted tab. 

note 2:  Causing a tune to resonate can be accomplished by finding a matching example and playing it on loop/repeat for as many days/weeks as it takes.

note 3:  Watching foreign language cinema with subtitles while practicing without any helper materials separates the brain functions and helps alleviate the boredom/frustration.

note 4:  Break up practice time into smaller chunks.  First thing in the morning and last thing in the evening generate the best retention

Find an in person teacher, or one on zoom.

It makes a lot more sense if you just used established musical framework rather than hokie "bum ditty" methods. 

First, set the rhythm. 1 2 3 4, 1 2 3 4. Count it out loud. Keep it consistent. Use a metronome! This is the beat. This is your time.

Once you have that down. Take your middle fingernail and strike down on the 1st string, on the 1 and the 3 beat. And when you strike the 1st string, place your thumb on the 5th string. Then on the 2 and 4, you pull up on the 5th string that your thumb is resting on. So you count 1-2-3-4, the motion is down-up-down-up, nail-thumb-nail-thumb, 1st-5th-1st-5th.

This basic right-hand stroke described above is the fundamental movement of clawhammer that all other techniques are based on. The so-called "bum-ditty" is that same motion, but with a rest on the 2 and a brush on the 3. All other clawhammer techniques are derived from this basic down-up-down-up motion with the middle (or index) nail and the thumb.

Practice that basic stroke. 1-2-3-4, Down-up-down-up, nail-thumb-nail-thumb, 1st-5th-1st-5th. Do it a lot, with a metronome, until you've got it down.

After that, you can start 'resting' the thumb up stroke on the 2. So then it becomes 1-2-3-4, down-[rest]-down-up, nail-[rest]-nail-thumb, 1st-[rest]-1st-5th. Do that a lot, with a metronome, until you've got it down.

After that, you can start 'brushing' the nail stroke on the 3. This means, instead of just hitting the 1st string, you the 3rd, 2nd, and 1st string. It's more like a strum, but in the same amount of time as before, keeping the same beat. On banjo, we call this a 'brush'. So then it becomes 1-2-3-4, down-[rest]-brush-up, nail-[rest]-nail[brush]-thumb, 1st-[rest]-[1st/2nd/3rd]-5th. Now you've done the bum-ditty. Do that a lot, with a metronome, until you've got it down.

That's the beginning. Go from there. Move your thumb and nail to different strings. Put rests anywhere to change the rhythm how you feel. 

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Originally posted by nealsotn

 Second plea for help.   I've been trying for years(!) now, and just don't get it. Every time I've tried to get started I become frustrated, put the banjo down, and walk-away just as I did again this morning...  

 I've subscribed to (and given up on) several online courses here on BH, have a modest library of intro/tutorial books, and watched too many YouTube videos, but they all go wacky when transitioning from the stand-alone bum-dit-ty into a rif or song.  They ALL switch from bum-dit-ty to bum-ty-dit, which breaks everything, and i can't get any further.

 Does anybody know of any videos where they actually practice what they preach- i.e., follow-through in a consistent manner from introductory bum-dit-ty into rifs or songs?  Its either that, or I need to find an alternate approach or mental-model leading to a (likely simple) breakthrough. 

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We've all heard the mantras 'We're all different' and 'What works for one doesn't necessarily work for all' but...

...with the early block you are experiencing I recommend you find competent face-to-face help and guidance. You have an offer from a nearby player. Speak to him (checking he's not a serial killer first is always a good idea. Though I've never met one yet that plays a banjo). You'll likely not only get the experienced help you need to enable you to make progress, but also make a friend to play music with. 

I'm a beginner to clawhammer and have found myself studying the movements individually rather than together to find consistency in the direction that I strike and brush. Even just bum-ty where I remove the brush and am practicing a song's melody/timing while listening to the drone string is some fun. I'm learning I'll Fly Away which has been easy enough but still makes me appreciate hearing the fullness of the chord rather than individual notes of three finger or fingerstyle playing. Best of luck.

Practice these figures (F = downstrike with finger, T = pluck with thumb, X = rest) : 

1. F X F X

2. F X F T (bum ditty) 

3. F T F X 

4. F T F T

5. F T X T

6. X T F T

7. X T X T

8. X X X X (full rest) 

9. F T X X

10. X T F X

11. X X F T

12. F X X T

13. F X X X

14. X T X X

15. X X F X

16. X X X T

Repeat each against a metronome at a comfortable tempo, not so slow that you can't feel the groove. Initially, you can stay on the open 1st string for F and the 5th string for T. Then start mixing and matching. Play 1-16 in order without stopping. Then 16-1. Then all odds, all evens, and so on. Come up with different patterns that cycle through the series. Eventually you will be able to choose randomly/spontaneously.

The next level, which you should not proceed to before the above feels comfortable, is to change which strings you play. The permutations are too many to list here, but start with 2nd and 5th, then 3rd and 5th, then 4th and 5th. Then 1st and 2nd (with the thumb), 1st and 3rd, 1st and 4th.

The next level beyond that is realizing that anywhere you have F X, the X can be filled (depending on context) with a left-hand hammer on or pull off. Any F can be made into a brush, although it is most commonly the second F in the four-note grouping. 

This kind of "rudiments" method does not suit most students (for one, it is pretty boring, and people want to play something that sounds like music right off the bat), but if nothing else has worked, you might give it a try. 

If you can afford it find a good teacher. My teacher uses Zoom. It's $50 for a one hour lesson. I do it every other week. It's fun and I'm making progress.

Shortcut/youtube/books or whatever can't take the place of a good teacher.

I played Scruggs style since 1979, I tried to learn clawhammer on my own various times (2017-2022).
I took an in person lesson in April of 2023, first lesson my teacher got me to play the bum ditty perfectly. Then my playing took off like a rocket, now I can play anything.
It’s an investment and you will accomplish your goal quickly.

 I'm not faulting the instructors- they are so talented and utilize their well-earned muscle-memory, but its the classic "expert and the newby" problem.  The expert can no longer see things from the newbies point of view (i.e., getting hung up on every tiny detail of posture, rhythm, string-number, fretting, and taking everything literally).  The expert likely doesn't even realize they are presenting contradictory fundamentals that must stumbled-over and un-learned in order to proceed.

 Most of the material I've seen presents the 'ol 3-beat "bum-dit-ty", and excercises repeat as "ABC", "ABC", "ABC", but the instructors subsequent rif or song lessons are played as "XYZ", "XYZ", "XYZ", or sometimes 4-beat "WXYZ", "WXYZ", "WXYZ".  They are not even remotely similar to what was taught and studied.

I'll keep trudging along occasionally, until something finally clicks.

For me it was a daily struggle and a live teacher to explain it. After three months it just clicked.

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Originally posted by nealsotn

 I'll keep trudging along occasionally, until something finally clicks.

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Persistence is a virtue. But in relation to banjo it needs to have a constructive focus to be effective.

You deserve better than biding your time on the off-chance that appropriate help happens by.

Also, having identified what isn't working for you is not wasted time. That knowledge enables you to select better from now on. A massive cliche that is absolutely true is:  Success is built on failure. Progress requires effort and momentum and we don't gain momentum without putting ourselves out there and taking risks. Risk comes with an increased chance of failure. Do it anyway, fail and learn what went wrong. Gradually you'll reduce your fail rate i.e. make progress.

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Originally posted by KCJones

...So you count 1-2-3-4, the motion is down-up-down-up, nail-thumb-nail-thumb...

...The so-called "bum-ditty" is that same motion, but with a rest on the 2 and a brush on the 3...

 Those two details are unexpected and helpful. (1) Its rarely shown to be a 4-beat sequence, and (2) the 'rest' being on the 2nd beat instead of the 4th (!).  This certainly changes the alignment of things that I knew "didn't feel right".  I recently read a post from someone experiencing a similar problem, they suggested the mnemonic should be renamed to "bum-ah-dit-ty" to properly convey its 4-beat nature, and where the pause should be expressed.  As alluded by others, I've been caught in a bum-ditty trap...

…and a heads-up on why you’re getting so many recommendations for face-to-face help:

Close observation, individual in-situ feedback.

Vital in the early stages of acquiring a rock-solid foundation of basic technique. It’s common for a student to think they’ve figured something out from a video. But so easy in isolation, to have got it a little wrong and then you’re practicing and building muscle memory for what is poor technique that will find you out.

As any teacher will tell you, unlearning practiced poor technique is the hardest, most time-consuming issue to overcome.

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Originally posted by banjoboyd

Practice these figures (F = downstrike with finger, T = pluck with thumb, X = rest) : 

1. F X F X

. . . . . . .

16. X X X T

. . . . . . . 

This kind of "rudiments" method does not suit most students (for one, it is pretty boring, and people want to play something that sounds like music right off the bat), but if nothing else has worked, you might give it a try. 

 I was beginning to suspect something like this might be the case-  that I am still stuck in a rigid sequence that does not reflect real-world playing, and that each element should be considerd independantly, in any order or rhythm.  As for the "rudiments" method above- it suits me fine. Thanks.

quote:

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Originally posted by nealsotn

quote:

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Originally posted by KCJones

...So you count 1-2-3-4, the motion is down-up-down-up, nail-thumb-nail-thumb...

...The so-called "bum-ditty" is that same motion, but with a rest on the 2 and a brush on the 3...

 Those two details are unexpected and helpful. (1) Its rarely shown to be a 4-beat sequence, and (2) the 'rest' being on the 2nd beat instead of the 4th (!).  This certainly changes the alignment of things that I knew "didn't feel right".  I recently read a post from someone experiencing a similar problem, they suggested the mnemonic should be renamed to "bum-ah-dit-ty" to properly convey its 4-beat nature, and where the pause should be expressed.  As alluded by others, I've been caught in a bum-ditty trap...

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In addition to KCJones' great post above, you might want to check out some of Dan Levenson's materials or schedule a Zoom lesson with him. He addresses a lot of these issues in his Clawhammer from Scratch book and elsewhere.

https://zeppmusic.com/Wordpress/2015/10/23/the-dreaded-bum-diddy-whats-up-with-that/

Bum-Dit-Ty is really Bum-PAUSE-Dit-Ty as pointed out above. Stomp your foot and your mind on the Bum. If you were listening to a song or tune, that is the beat you would naturally tap your foot to. Do the first string bum-dit-ty over and over again, then the 2d, 3d, and fourth. Then practice going from string to string without losing the beat, the bum/stomp as you do the bum-dit-ty. Finally go to Skip To My Lou hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...22013.pdf and play it measure by measure until it finally all clicks and you can do it nearly without thinking. Knowing and being able to play ONE tune correctly opens the door to thousands. If you are pathologically and irrationally persistent like the rest of us, you WILL eventually get it whether it takes one thousand bum-dit-tys or a hundred thousand. banjered

Who do you like as a player? Who do you listen to the most? Whoever it is, LISTEN over and over and over to their playing style, pick out one song to play, and just keep banging away until you start to sound like the person you're emulating... the right hand, left hand technique is kind of immaterial as long as you figure out a way to get the SOUND you're looking for, because usually the right and left hand will be doing what they need to do to get what you're looking for sound wise.

Old tried and true method, has worked well for a couple hundred years, but it does take an investment in time to listen. Good luck and happy hammering.

Josh Turknett's book "Anyone Can Play Music" gives a great deal of information on learning the banjo (as well as other instruments). His approach, as a neurologist, is quite uique. Also, I've found Banjoskills and Banjo Adventures videos on youtube to be quite useful. Everyone responds differently to teaching methods, and there are many good players that are not that good at teaching. The three that I mentioned seem to work for me. YMMV.

Have you ever tried index-lead 2-finger? You play pretty much the exact same notes as clawhammer, but plucking upward with the index finger. The back-beat ("dit" of the bum-ditty) can be brushed down, or up, and the hand moves quite differently in those 2 cases, and both are quite different from the clawhammer stroke. If you listen to traditional players, what sounds like clawhammer (frailing, rapping, knocking) isn't always being played that way.

Most of Doc Watson’s playing that people think is clawhammer, is exactly that two-finger style.

How I learned - I struggled with the basic clawhammer technique for a long time and didn't make much progress on whatever random tabs I tried to learn. Then at some point I got frustrated and decided I was going to at least learn to play one single tune, however long it took. The one I picked was mole in the ground (it has plenty of slides and hammer-on/pull offs and drop-thumb, which are all good to practice). I looked up a youtube tutorial for it and just practiced it over and over and over, almost every day, sometimes for just a few minutes sometimes for an hour or two until I and anyone in ear shot was sick of hearing it.

Finally after a couple months I got to the point where I could play it at a consistent tempo while singing along without any mistakes. Only then did I start learning other tunes, and I found that they came much easier, only taking a few days/weeks of consistent practice to learn.

I don't know if this is the best method, but that's how I did it.