Anjie - Posted - 07/10/2011:  06:57:32

Hello all!   I joined the BHO a few days ago.  Already, from utilizing information on this site, I’m starting to break out of my tab purgatory!   Yes, tab purgatory (cue ominous music here), where one cannot be functional on the banjo without a piece of tab in front of them.

Up until now, I would open up my copy of Janet Davis’ You Can Teach Yourself Banjo book to a song I wanted to work on, and I would practice that song over and over, increasing the speed on the metronome whenever possible.  Sounds like a great idea, right?  Yeah, kinda…

For me, as I practiced in this format, I would ALWAYS be staring at the tab as I went through the song.  I became extremely dependent on having a song in tab in front of me.  Sure, I could play rolls and change chords, but only if these rolls and chords were explicitly spelled out for me.   I couldn’t “think for myself” when it came to playing the banjo.   If I closed the book, I would freeze up.  If someone wanted to hear me play, I would have to go grab my book and open it.  The worst was when I tried to jam along with a couple of guitar players –I was overwhelmed and absolutely at a loss of how to play impromptu backup banjo.

Reading through the threads here, I realize that I was just “reciting” banjo – not really “playing” banjo.  The real lightbulb moment for me was when I watched one of the instructional videos from the video downloads area of the site.  It was Jens Kruger’s Banjo Method for Beginners – An Easy and Joyful Way to Start Picking, and it showed me how to simply pick out a melody by ear, even on one string, and add forward rolls as flavor between notes.  The flavor that you add is all about what you feel like at the time, so it can change – it’s not static.  A-ha!!  Now it’s all starting to make sense!  I’m going to progress now, yay!

I think my next steps are to explore the threads on how to put chords together (so I can wean myself off of chord charts), try to figure out what it really means to be playing in a different key, and perhaps download some of the Murphy Method videos.   I’m going to shift my focus from trying to play a song as fast as I can to trying to understand how to create the song.

Whew!  That was sure long-winded!  I’d love to get any feedback/advice that ya’ll have to offer!

Just Bill - Posted - 07/10/2011:  07:06:33

Howdy, Anjie! ...and welcome to the Banjo Hangout!

Congratulations on you're breaking out of tab purgatory! :^)

I learned from the Murphy Method and cannot say enough good things about her and her way of teaching...it sure worked for me.

I invite you to join two groups here on the Banjo Hangout you will likely find beneficial:

-The "Playing By Ear" group banjohangout.org/group/playingbyear

-The "Murphy's Misfits" group banjohangout.org/group/murphysmisfits

I wish you the best and hope you enjoy your time here on the Hangout.

Bill

steve davis - Posted - 07/10/2011:  07:08:19

I used tab more in the beginning and still like to look through a piece to see what someone else's approach was at a certain passage.I always check out the tabs every month in BNL
Learning music can be a life long endeavor and being familiar with different approaches such as playing by ear,using video,tab or studying theory can all help keep music interesting and fresh.
Have a great journey.

eagleisland - Posted - 07/10/2011:  07:14:36

Tab can be enormously helpful for new players.  Understanding tab is also really helpful for more experienced players - for example, if trying to find out how another player did something.  I often tab stuff out if I'm learning something by ear (when one gets used to it,  it can really show you graphically if you're doing something in the most biomechanically efficient way).  I also find it really helpful if I'm writing a new tune or working up a new arrangement on a break - having it tabbed out means I've got something to go back to if I haven't played that piece in a few months and can't quite remember how I did it.

But you're quite right, Anjie - tab can be a crutch, and you're not the first person who has found themselves over-reliant upon it. I liken it to a road map - useful for figuring out where to make your turns, but the map can't drive your car for you or tell you which lane to drive in.

One trick that helps break the tab habit for some people is to take it slow.  Start with the first two measures, lock 'em in so you can play 'em without tab.  Then add the next measure or two, and play 'em without tab.  And so on until the entire piece is playable w/o tab. 

1moretime - Posted - 07/10/2011:  07:23:26

Welcome Anjie. I am re-learning the banjo after a 25 year hiatus. I started with tabs to get familiarized with chords, tunes, etc. But, like many found myself relying on tabs. I found I had learned several licks (from the tabs) that could be strung together to form a pseudo song. By concentrating on the melody, change the notes a little and a better version of the song would emerge. Now that you realize that tabs are limiting your creative ability, it's time to take a deep breath and just try doing your own thing. Another poster in a different thread said another issue with tabs is that you begin to rate your skill on how well you can play the tab note-for-note instead of how well you can play the song. I still use tabs to assist getting the right chord progression, but I found there is no substitute for having the tune "down cold" in your head and just getting after it. It's not fast, no instant gratification, but it is so satisfying when it comes together. Best of luck to you and have fun.

bhrb75 - Posted - 07/10/2011:  07:25:46

Anjie,

One of the biggest things is to learn how to "listen." A lot of people hear music but they don't "listen" to it. "Listening" is a skill that develops just like your right and left hands on the banjo. You have to love the music enough and be intrigued enough about it to listen to it over and over and over...

When you truly listen, you listen for all the details. This involves breaking down the song into the melody, which as I see you are an ME, you might remember those physics and engineering problems were solved. You had to start with the "fundamental equation" and by manipulating it to your needs, substitutuins, assumptions, etc. you were able to solve the problem. I know that's a little broad, but it is very evident in learning to play without tab.

You have to listen to the song enough so that you get the melody out of it and you can hum or sing that melody along with it, even if it's a banjo tune like Foggy Mountain Chimes or Ron Stewart's Black and Tan or even Bela's tune "Slipstream." If you can hum the melody and find those notes on the fingerboard, that's the fundamental equation.

A thing that has helped me develop my ear, is listening to good old time fiddle players and the older bluegrass players. If you can listen and hear every note that is played on the fiddle, it will make you a stronger listener in other areas.

I wish you luck on your journey as Steve says it is a lifelong endeavor, but it is very rewarding.

B.

BDCA - Posted - 07/10/2011:  07:47:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by bhrb75

Anjie,



One of the biggest things is to learn how to "listen." A lot of people hear music but they don't "listen" to it. "Listening" is a skill that develops just like your right and left hands on the banjo. You have to love the music enough and be intrigued enough about it to listen to it over and over and over...



When you truly listen, you listen for all the details. This involves breaking down the song into the melody, which as I see you are an ME, you might remember those physics and engineering problems were solved. You had to start with the "fundamental equation" and by manipulating it to your needs, substitutuins, assumptions, etc. you were able to solve the problem. I know that's a little broad, but it is very evident in learning to play without tab.



You have to listen to the song enough so that you get the melody out of it and you can hum or sing that melody along with it, even if it's a banjo tune like Foggy Mountain Chimes or Ron Stewart's Black and Tan or even Bela's tune "Slipstream." If you can hum the melody and find those notes on the fingerboard, that's the fundamental equation.



A thing that has helped me develop my ear, is listening to good old time fiddle players and the older bluegrass players. If you can listen and hear every note that is played on the fiddle, it will make you a stronger listener in other areas.



I wish you luck on your journey as Steve says it is a lifelong endeavor, but it is very rewarding.



B.

---

I totally agree with all the above. When I want to learn a new tune, I get a good recording and play the s**t out of it. I have it on repeat while I am working, I listen to it on my MP3 player while I sleep, also on repeat. Once I totally have the tune in my head I work out the tune on the banjo the way I hear it, and then if there are any "holes" or parts that I can't figure out, I refer to the tab or notation. It becomes a reference, not a crutch.

I have played with people who have to have sheet music in front of them and I think it's pathetic. Fine for Brahms, dumb for bluegrass. It's like playing along with a midi.

Cya!

Bob

Anjie - Posted - 07/10/2011:  08:05:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by eagleisland

Tab can be enormously helpful for new players.  Understanding tab is also really helpful for more experienced players - for example, if trying to find out how another player did something.  I often tab stuff out if I'm learning something by ear (when one gets used to it,  it can really show you graphically if you're doing something in the most biomechanically efficient way).  I also find it really helpful if I'm writing a new tune or working up a new arrangement on a break - having it tabbed out means I've got something to go back to if I haven't played that piece in a few months and can't quite remember how I did it.

But you're quite right, Anjie - tab can be a crutch, and you're not the first person who has found themselves over-reliant upon it. I liken it to a road map - useful for figuring out where to make your turns, but the map can't drive your car for you or tell you which lane to drive in.

One trick that helps break the tab habit for some people is to take it slow.  Start with the first two measures, lock 'em in so you can play 'em without tab.  Then add the next measure or two, and play 'em without tab.  And so on until the entire piece is playable w/o tab. 

---

Couldn't agree more - all of the replies have been spot-on.

The best analogy that I can think of is cooking.  Recipes are great for a beginning chef; you can follow recipes and make amazing meals.  They provide guidelines and a roadmap for going from raw ingredients to a final product.  However, once you understand the recipe and the interactions of ingredients and process, you can begin to customize and tweak and create wonderful meals on your own.

Joe Larson - Posted - 07/10/2011:  08:13:47

The "tab vs. ear" debate has raged on this site in the past and personally I come down somewhere in the middle. I started playing totally by ear, listening to Will The Circle Be Unbroken - NGDB - trying to match what I heard on records. And after "learning" 4 or 5 tunes a real Bluegrass Banjo player pointed out that I had it totally wrong. Playing strictly by ear completely messed me up and I had to start over. Twice! I've had students who've done the same and I'm having a hard time straightening them out.



Not saying learning strictly by tab is the answer either. There are lots of musicians who can't play a note without their "music" be it tab or standard notation including symphony orchestra musicians. I guess what I'm saying is that a competent teacher could have helped wean you from tab and taught you more about how to play by ear.

j

Gymbal31 - Posted - 07/10/2011:  08:19:36

I agree with Eagleisland.  One of my banjo teachers would love to teach beginners to play by ear but he'd never have any students.  I've gotten better at playing by ear due to an ensemble class I was in.  I had to work out breaks by listening to the songs we were working on and then play them in class with all the other instruments.  By the end of the class, I was finding the melody pretty quickly.  Went to a jam a couple of weeks ago and I was suddenly playing at least a little of the melody of songs I didn't know.

Tab is just another tool to learn from.  It's up to the banjo player to know when it's time to move on.

TTreppa - Posted - 07/10/2011:  09:19:16

Angie,

Welcome to the BHO. A couple of suggestions that worked for me. They might work for you.

Find a teacher - the BHO is a good place to find a teacher. He/she will help you to progress at a fantastic rate, well faster than trying to go it alone. Second find a group to jam with. The experience of jamming will help you to play "under cover" as is might be termed. You don't have to take breaks until you are ready. In a jam you can practice your rolls, etc. Any type of jam will work. I've gone to Country jams, Bluegrass jams, Banjo jams, and they all are learning experiences.

Best in your banjo journey.

Terry Treppa

Richard Dress - Posted - 07/10/2011:  09:48:16

Here is an archived discussion of going beyond tab to create melody:  banjohangout.org/topic/200821

The basic idea is to derive the melody from the lyrics, rather than memorize tab.

steve davis - Posted - 07/10/2011:  10:01:54

I've used tab since 1975 and I've never memorized it and it has never hurt my playing by ear.
It's no different than getting a player to show you how they play something.

SWCooper - Posted - 07/10/2011:  10:22:36

I'm too stupid for tab  :(

I can puzzle it out, given enough time, but as soon as I get the gist of the tune, I run away and practice my bastardized version. I think I might have a touch of AD...say, did you bring cookies?

drew-gurbach - Posted - 07/10/2011:  14:16:13

My student utilize tab to a point. Tab is great for a beginner, and useful for the experienced. I’ve been playing for 40 years and when getting into a new song I glance a tab and then do what I do. Tab for experienced players is a good jumping off point in order to get the “idea” of how something new is done.
I’ve taught my students to first decide what key you want to play something in (and try various keys at first), then strum the chords, then find the melody notes, then embellish.
You may be playing 100% tab now, but some day you’ll be playing 95% ear, and 5% tab for “specific” ideas. Good luck and welcome!

fixdent - Posted - 07/10/2011:  17:20:28

One trick that helps break the tab habit for some people is to take it slow.  Start with the first two measures, lock 'em in so you can play 'em without tab.  Then add the next measure or two, and play 'em without tab.  And so on until the entire piece is playable w/o tab.

I still don't understand all this.

If you learn from tab,  memorize it, and throw the tab away......You now can play it without tab.  But it's still learned from tab.

To me unless you can pick it up on the fly, and put your own spin on it, along with getting out the melody.....your still playing from tab.

--

Gordon

steve davis - Posted - 07/10/2011:  17:32:01

I don't continue to play something the exact way I learned it from tab.I use my own taste and play it my way.
I rarely play anything the same way twice.

phb - Posted - 07/11/2011:  02:09:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by fixdent

If you learn from tab,  memorize it, and throw the tab away......You now can play it without tab.  But it's still learned from tab.

To me unless you can pick it up on the fly, and put your own spin on it, along with getting out the melody.....your still playing from tab.

---

I partly disagree with that. I used to play from tab like a robot, I saw the "notes" and my fingers automatically did what they had to do. When I started to memorise the tab, I made lots of mistakes, got lost, and eventually learned to "think" in terms of "now comes the up-the-neck part" or "ok, change to D and then back to G for the ending lick". I think this is a small step but a first one on the way to playing without tab.

And then: where is the difference between being taught how to play a tune in a one-on-one session with a more experienced player and playing the piece just like you were taught, on the one hand, and memorising tab on the other? In both cases you are clinging to the version you learned and in both cases you need something more to finally drop the crutches.

I believe that memorising tab will at least teach you to be more aware of the actual music, develop a basic "sense of orientation" and frees some brain resources otherwise occupied for reading the tab.

Jim Yates - Posted - 07/11/2011:  06:03:27

Do you play the forward roll? ...the square roll? ...the FMB roll?  Chances are you learned them either from tab, from a teacher, from a friend or from listening to a recording. 

It`s nice to be able to "play things on the fly", but you don`t start off playing that way.  Not many banjo players can say that they came up with these techniques on their own.  They learned the rolls, licks and other techniques either from tab, from a teacher, from a friend or by listening to records.  You eventually come to rely less and less on whatever method you used to learn, but most players will still go back to one of these methods occasionally.  While it`s nice to be able to play independently of all of these learning tools, let`s not look down on someone who learns differently than you do.

One thing I do like about tab learners is that I seldom hear them saying in a disparaging tone, "Oh, you learned that from a teacher," or "Oh, you learned that from a record," or "Oh, somebody showed you that roll."

I do get tired of hearing people say that writing something down is a bad thing.  Tab or standard notation are just tools, and useful ones.

Edited by - Jim Yates on 07/11/2011 06:10:29

Paul Michael - Posted - 07/11/2011:  06:53:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jim Yates

Do you play the forward roll? ...the square roll? ...the FMB roll?  Chances are you learned them either from tab, from a teacher, from a friend or from listening to a recording. 

It`s nice to be able to "play things on the fly", but you don`t start off playing that way.  Not many banjo players can say that they came up with these techniques on their own.  They learned the rolls, licks and other techniques either from tab, from a teacher, from a friend or by listening to records.  You eventually come to rely less and less on whatever method you used to learn, but most players will still go back to one of these methods occasionally.  While it`s nice to be able to play independently of all of these learning tools, let`s not look down on someone who learns differently than you do.

One thing I do like about tab learners is that I seldom hear them saying in a disparaging tone, "Oh, you learned that from a teacher," or "Oh, you learned that from a record," or "Oh, somebody showed you that roll."

I do get tired of hearing people say that writing something down is a bad thing.  Tab or standard notation are just tools, and useful ones.

---

Jim, That makes good sense to me.  I've learned different things from tab, DVD, and a friend.  Honestly, to me, a weakness of DVD is I've got to rewind over and over to "see" what the instructor is doing & be able to duplicate it.  With tabs it's recorded where I can just read it.  I wonder how quickly folks could memorize a long poem from listening to it over and over vs. reading it.  People learn in various ways, some are visual, others are better at listening.  For me a combination seems to work best.  I agree with you that few people, probably no one, started off "playing on the fly."  We dig things out however we can until we get to a point of cutting the umbilical cord a snip at a time.

seanray - Posted - 07/11/2011:  06:57:20

quote:

Originally posted by Anjie

​I couldn’t “think for myself” when it came to playing the banjo. 

______________________________________________

That's the real problem right there. Tab isn't inherently evil but it can make you lazy if used in isolation. Critical listening and noodling are essential to learning how to think for yourself in terms of playing the banjo.

Just play. Make stuff up and don't be afraid of screwing up because we all do.

stanleytone - Posted - 07/11/2011:  07:41:00

welcome  angie from a fellow tidewater picker.as great as tab is,its how you use it that matters.sooner or later you gotta rely on your own instincts and ear.the best way to do that? start jamming as soon as possible.get those chord shapes down asap, so you can follow along in a jam even if you cant take a break on it.there are some great pickers in the tidewater area,as im sure you know. watch them.ask them questions.i know most of them and they are some great people who will be more than happy to help you along.as far as looking away from the tab, when i started out i would have tab in front of me,but i would also have the t.v on, ,watching the game ,while occasionally looking at the tab..i l;eanred to play without thinking about it that way.i learned more tunes while watching NFL football and old movies than just about anything.!!

Edited by - stanleytone on 07/11/2011 07:52:51

n1wr - Posted - 07/11/2011:  07:42:29

This is a good discussion and right on point for many beginners. 

If you want an exercise in frustration pick out a TAB from the list here on BHO for a song that you've never heard.  Play the song from the tab.  Where's the melody?  Unless you know the song you cannot find the right places to put emphasis and you'll not be playing the song - just notes.

Learning to play banjo is more than just learning to play notes.  You need to hear the melody and feel the emphasized notes lifting out form the accompanying backup notes.  This is where a teacher is really an important element to learning.  Not to mention proper timing, identifying bad habits, and all the other points already made.

Wayne

Anjie - Posted - 07/11/2011:  09:16:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by n1wr

This is a good discussion and right on point for many beginners. 

If you want an exercise in frustration pick out a TAB from the list here on BHO for a song that you've never heard.  Play the song from the tab.  Where's the melody?  Unless you know the song you cannot find the right places to put emphasis and you'll not be playing the song - just notes.

Learning to play banjo is more than just learning to play notes.  You need to hear the melody and feel the emphasized notes lifting out form the accompanying backup notes.  This is where a teacher is really an important element to learning.  Not to mention proper timing, identifying bad habits, and all the other points already made.

 

​Yes!  Great point, Wayne!  I've done that many a time - I'm not familiar with the melody, but I'll try out the tab.  Of course, it sounds pretty mechanical until I find the song and listen to it and think "so THAT's what it's supposed to sound like!".  It's like putting the right emPHASis on the right syLLAble.

Mario Rimoldi - Posted - 07/13/2011:  06:54:47

I found the Murphy Method works for me because as you play each song in order the next song uses the same techniques as the previous song, Banjo in the Hollow and then Cripple Creek etc. I also found myself buying allot of stuff and getting confused. Stick to one Instructional method (in the beginning) and as you get better I'm sure you could expand to whatever you want. Good Luck.

Notab - Posted - 07/13/2011:  09:06:03

Anjie: You should give yourself a pat on the back for trying to get away from"tab". As far as I am concerned, it is the only way to go. Not only do you get away from always having to have print with you, but it helped me to really listen more intense to a song being played by someone else. As far as the Murphy Method is concerned, you have made the right choice.......she is a great instructor. Good luck and good pickin'.  Notab.

steve davis - Posted - 07/13/2011:  09:56:09

Just learning to mechanically play notes(right fingers in the right place at the right time) is important to develop strong fingers and hands.

There is no bad aspect of learning to play music as long as it doesn't involve bad timing.

One of the best things you can strive for is good tone from both hands.It doesn't matter how the info gets into your head...tab,dvd or teacher.At some point you will have to make your own decisions,anyway.



There's no need to worry about tab turning you into a copy machine,unless you have no imagination at all.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/13/2011 09:57:43

neqoda - Posted - 07/13/2011:  11:58:59

Another Newbie here, I,ve worked with tab from the beginning and it just didn't seam to work al that well.  There are some things that I've learned from it and will look at it from time to time. But most of the time I just didn't feel like I was makin headway with it. I started over and started learning chords after I got the rolls down and I found the thread on playing backup and that has helped a whole lot, learning to trust my ears. I also picked up some of the Murphy method DVDs and that has helped to. Steppin away from the tab has been a good decision for me. I also had questions about what I was doing, some of the answers I got were not much help either, "why do you want to know that, just play the tab...). I just don't want to play, I want to be able to "express myself" on the Banjo. Their are some good threads here, I've learned more from this site than anywhere else that I've looked. Thanks to all who have put the time and work into writing these threads. Thank You !!!   

keva - Posted - 07/13/2011:  19:46:48

I've only been playing a couple of years, so for me , I'm mostly still using tabs.  

But I'm also an engineer, so I need something visual, like an equation, to help me understand things.  From this standpoint, tabs have been very useful.  I can look at a piece of music and understand the key it is in, how chord progressions work, and what "notes" and rolls are used in those progressions.  It has also helped me understand how licks create the song.

I bought the tab book for Steve Martin, The Crow, a few months back, and matching the tabs with the music has been very helpful for me to understand how the banjo relates to the music.

Of course, my teacher doesn't use tabs and he is trying to teach me to play by ear.  That is my ultimate goal and I'm moving that direction.  When he teaches me a lick or song, I have to tab it out so I remember it during the week.  But by the next week or two, I usually have it memorized and it makes sense.

Thanks for the post, Anjie.  This has been helpful for me, too...

overhere - Posted - 07/14/2011:  03:23:56

Reminds me of the story Bill Cosby tells.
Seems he lived in a bad neighborhood and if he took the alley short cut home he would always get mugged. They’d beat him up and take his wallet.
He got tired of this and went to a self defense class at the local YMCA. There they started teaching him self defense Karate. He spent hours of breaking bricks with his fist until his hand developed into a weapon of self defense, hard as a steel mallet.
He now had the confidence to take the alley short cut home.
One night as he was walking through the alley he was approached by a mugger who demanded his wallet. Bill smiled then took the brick out of his pocket, laid it on the ground and with one swift motion with his fist he broke the brick in half.
Bill still can’t figure out why he got beat up and had his wallet stolen that night.

steve davis - Posted - 07/14/2011:  05:42:19

Use of tablature won't hurt your playing and if someone takes a picture of you,you won't lose part of your soul.

Old Hickory - Posted - 07/14/2011:  08:53:08

Are symphony orchestra musicians stuck in sheet music purgatory?

Just askin'.

Richard Dress - Posted - 07/14/2011:  09:13:17

Without a conductor to tell the orchestra how to turn the sheet music into real music, they would sound like crap.  Bluegrass musicians don't have a conductor.

Old Hickory - Posted - 07/14/2011:  09:22:44

There's no conductor telling the musicians how to play when they're practicing at home.  I'm willing to bet they use their sheet music there.

Richard Dress - Posted - 07/14/2011:  09:47:28

That's true.  But I never think of an orchestra in terms of someone playing at home alone.

Tab, of course, is a valuable tool for demonstrating ideas like rolls, slides, POs, etc.  A teaching tool, like waterwings.  But tab becomes a hindrance at some point.  The idea of using tab sort of like an orchestra member uses sheet music is strange to me, even though I have seen people do it and I admire their talent.  But I wonder, if using tab that way is helpful at all?

Edited by - Richard Dress on 07/14/2011 09:48:46

Old Hickory - Posted - 07/14/2011:  11:15:36

I'm not at all suggesting that anyone ever go into a bluegrass jam or performance and expect to play off their tab. (Though I occasionally bring tab to band practice when I need a reminder of something specific I've worked out)  The point of my symphonic musician example is that those musicians can only learn their parts from sheet music.  I'm sure they don't practice without it.  Can you imagine a 2nd or 3rd violin trying to learn (or even hear) their part to Beethoven's Fifth by slowing down a record?  And even string quartets quite often (most often?) play off their music without anyone criticizing their ability or accusing them of using a crutch.

What I'm trying to convey -- and which you seem to agree with to some extent -- is that tab is a perfectly acceptable learning tool.  It's a long-established method of transmitting banjo music on paper.  Not just banjo, of course, but the playing instructions for any instrument on which the way or location that notes are played is as important as the notes themselves.

I really think anti-tab comments -- tab is a crutch, tab is a hindrance, tab is purgatory, tab will make your hair fall out -- get pretty far removed from common sense and real world experience.

Why can't we acknowledge that there are plenty of banjo learners who simply cannot remember how to play their lessons or the new tunes their teachers have given them? Of course those learners are going to use their tab for as long as it takes to learn what they're trying to play.  If they never get to the point of being able to play without their tab, it's not the tab's fault.  And if some players simply can't decipher tab or relate tab to the notated music or audio recordings and instead learn better some other way with some other tool, well that's not the tab's fault either and it in no way proves or supports that tab is bad.

Another question I've asked before:  If tab is such a crutch, hindrance or purgatory, why is it that practically every day someone on the Hangout suggests that someone should get the Earl Scruggs book so they can learn -- from the tab -- how Earl played his stuff?

If tab is so terrible, why hasn't the tab-is-a-crutch-from-purgatory contingent mounted a concerted effort to shut down or empty the Hangout's tab archives? Don't they want to save players from such a terrible fate?

I've been playing for nearly 40 years.  Of course I can learn and work out some banjo pieces by listening to them.  But sometimes I don't have the time.  I have a real life, three bands (bluegrass, Celtic and rock / I play both banjo and bass) and limited practice time.  Sometimes I like the challenge of working out for myself what some pro has recorded so I can then use or adapt it to my needs.  But sometimes -- as others have already mentioned -- I like the shortcut of looking at tab and seeing at a glance how something is played, especially when it has me stumped.

Rant over.

Rich Weill - Posted - 07/14/2011:  11:16:42

As I see it, there are two basic ways to learn a song:  horizontally and vertically.  Tab learners, by and large, learn horizontally.  You start at the first measure and work your way through, measure by measure.  Whether memorized or not, it's still horizontal.  [Learning from recordings or from the Murphy Method or by demonstration also is horizontal learning.  That's not a judgment, just an orientation.]

But you can also learn vertically -- not measure by measure, but layer by layer.

The chord progression is one layer.  It's the foundation.  Adding rhythm to the chord progression -- strums, rolls, vamps -- is the second layer.  Adding melody to the rhythmic chord progression (generally by inserting melody notes into rolls) is the third layer.

Then comes the fun part:  playing with the song.  Changing your right hand patterns to make them more interesting.  Adding left-hand techniques to accentuate key melody notes.  Substituting some fancy licks that retain the feel of the melody.  Filling in the blank melody spaces with something chord-oriented that sounds good.

You don't have to do this all at once.  You don't have to do it the same way each time.  And it can be a never-ending process.

This is the learning method I picture when I hear about "breaking out of tab purgatory." 

Edited by - Rich Weill on 07/14/2011 11:20:48

steve davis - Posted - 07/14/2011:  11:23:04

I hear all the chord changes when I play through a tab.It wouldn't make much sense without figuring in the timing and chords.

I've never seen anyone play from tab in public.Is this a real problem?

Richard Dress - Posted - 07/14/2011:  11:33:45

Old Hickory:  I really think anti-tab comments -- tab is a crutch, tab is a hindrance, tab is purgatory, tab will make your hair fall out -- get pretty far removed from common sense and real world experience.

---------------------------------------

​I said tab is a hindrance at some point and I stick by that.  I can't imagine anyone with real world experience would deny that.  I have used tab to learn Scrugg's approach and JD's approach, I used ear to learn Stanley style.  I didn't explain it as well as Rich Weil just did in the post above.  Everyone needs to break away from tab and try the approach Rich described, that was really what I was trying to get at.  Tab holds you back if it doesn't let you break away and move up to a more productive level of playing.

Edited by - Richard Dress on 07/14/2011 11:35:45

Old Hickory - Posted - 07/14/2011:  12:07:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Dress

I said tab is a hindrance at some point and I stick by that.  I can't imagine anyone with real world experience would deny that.... Tab holds you back if it doesn't let you break away and move up to a more productive level of playing.

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And I stick by my belief that if you never reach that higher level, it's not the tab's fault.

Tab is just numbers and lines on paper. Those numbers and lines aren't holding you back from learning your chords and progressions. They're not holding you back from developing an ear. They're not making you look at them when you could be listening to slowed down music in headphones and trying to figure out for yourself what's going on. They're not keeping you from seeking out answers elsewhere to your questions about music. The tab isn't making you use the tab. The tab isn't keeping you from hearing what you're playing and making connections to what you've already learned and heard. The tab isn't making you use the tab or freeze up when you don't have it or forget what's in it.  The tab isn't doing or responsible for any of that.

Tab is, was and always will be about transmitting the mechanics of banjo playing: play this string at this fret for this long, now play this string at this fret for this long, etc. Tab -- and netiher is sheet music for that matter -- is not about becoming a musician, which is the essence of that more productive level of playing you and Rich are describing.

I've never heard anyone say, or read a persuasive case here, that they would have become a real musician were it not for the tab holding them back.

I've got plenty of real world experience and I deny that tab is a hindrance.

steve davis - Posted - 07/14/2011:  12:08:37

Tab has never been a hindrance to me.

Joe Larson - Posted - 07/14/2011:  12:24:50

As Old Hickory says if you can't play without the tab, it's not the tabs fault. Right now there are millions of people who are sitting down at a piano playing music from standard notation and having a great time. Can they play without their music? Probably not but so what? Or maybe they can play a few tunes they've memorized from the notation but isn't that the same thing?

What we're talking about here is not playing from tab or not playing from tab but being able to figure a tune out on the banjo by ear and that's a totally different thing from putting away the tab and playing from memory. Whether you've learned the tune from a tab or had Murphy Henry show it to you it's not playing by ear; that's a different and often difficult skill set to acquire.

Use the tab, use Murphy Henry, use YouTube and anything else you can find that will get you where you want to go. But mostly listen to as much music as you can. After awhile you should be able to hear the licks you've learned - from whatever source - in other tunes and apply them to new tunes.

There's a whole world of resources open to newbies that wasn't available when I was starting out, don't reject any of it because someone thinks it's bad.

j

Anjie - Posted - 07/14/2011:  12:30:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by Old Hickory

What I'm trying to convey -- and which you seem to agree with to some extent -- is that tab is a perfectly acceptable learning tool.  It's a long-established method of transmitting banjo music on paper.  Not just banjo, of course, but the playing instructions for any instrument on which the way or location that notes are played is as important as the notes themselves.

I really think anti-tab comments -- tab is a crutch, tab is a hindrance, tab is purgatory, tab will make your hair fall out -- get pretty far removed from common sense and real world experience.

Why can't we acknowledge that there are plenty of banjo learners who simply cannot remember how to play their lessons or the new tunes their teachers have given them? Of course those learners are going to use their tab for as long as it takes to learn what they're trying to play.  If they never get to the point of being able to play without their tab, it's not the tab's fault.  And if some players simply can't decipher tab or relate tab to the notated music or audio recordings and instead learn better some other way with some other tool, well that's not the tab's fault either and it in no way proves or supports that tab is bad.

 

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​I do not disagree with you; ​if I conveyed that I thought tab was useless as a learning tool, I apologize.  As most of the posts on this thread have mentioned, it is a wonderful tool.

My original post was intended to be a total self-congratulatory pat on my own back - a celebration that I was starting to make the transition away from being one of those "banjo learners who simply cannot remember how to play their lessons or the new tunes their teachers have given them".

As someone who doesn't really have a clue as to what the heck she's doing, it was a big deal to begin that transition and not  have my eyes glued to a book.  When I bought the Murphy Method DVD,  I was able to have a song translated to me in terms of "do a forward roll and then a backward roll in this chord and then do the same thing in this other chord".  That was liberating to me.  I WANT to be able to play along with fellow players, I WANT to be able to pick out pieces of a song by ear, I WANT to be able to improvise and customize and create.... for me, I cannot do any of these things if I am incapable of looking away from the tab.

steve davis - Posted - 07/14/2011:  12:38:30

As soon as you feel you are able(maybe a bit before) get together with one or more other musicians and start trying out some of the things you are learning in the real world.
This will help you in many ways as in
staying in rhythm and on time
hearing chord changes
taking advice from others
kicking off and ending tunes and not losing your place.

The best way to learn to play along with others is to just do it,imo.

Rich Weill - Posted - 07/14/2011:  12:49:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by Old Hickory

Tab is just numbers and lines on paper. Those numbers and lines aren't holding you back from learning your chords and progressions. They're not holding you back from developing an ear. They're not making you look at them when you could be listening to slowed down music in headphones and trying to figure out for yourself what's going on. They're not keeping you from seeking out answers elsewhere to your questions about music. The tab isn't making you use the tab. The tab isn't keeping you from hearing what you're playing and making connections to what you've already learned and heard. The tab isn't making you use the tab or freeze up when you don't have it or forget what's in it.  The tab isn't doing or responsible for any of that.

Tab is, was and always will be about transmitting the mechanics of banjo playing: play this string at this fret for this long, now play this string at this fret for this long, etc.

---

I think there is at least one area in which tab itself has changed the way banjo music is played and, in my personal opinion, done so detrimentally.

A very strong case can be made that tab "is, was and always will" misrepresent the rhythm of songs it "transmits" -- and has changed the rhythm of these songs for the worse as a result.  Tab notates an 8-note measure as 8 notes of equal duration, regardless of whether they actually are (or may be) played with a long-short-long-short bouncy rhythm.  Tab (unlike sophisticated standard notation) has never paid attention to rhythmic subtleties.  Consequently, banjo music has become progressively less bouncy and more metronomic as players conformed their playing to the simplified, even-value way in which tab represented (or, rather, misrepresented) the notes of a measure.

steve davis - Posted - 07/14/2011:  12:57:49

I've never expected tab to show me the rhythmic nuances of a tune.It shows the structure.Learn the subleties from live or recorded sources...by ear.

Practice reading time accurately and tab will flow much better.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/14/2011 12:59:12

Old Hickory - Posted - 07/14/2011:  13:00:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anjie

My original post was intended to be a total self-congratulatory pat on my own back - a celebration that I was starting to make the transition away from being one of those "banjo learners who simply cannot remember how to play their lessons or the new tunes their teachers have given them". . . . As someone who doesn't really have a clue as to what the heck she's doing, it was a big deal to begin that transition and not  have my eyes glued to a book.

---

Anjie:

I meant no criticism of you.  And you deserve plenty of congratulations for your breakthrough!  Sounds like you're on your way to becoming a real musician -- someone who, in your words, can "play along with fellow players . . . pick out pieces of a song by ear . . . improvise and customize and create."   And it's not just you, but nobody can "do any of these things if (they are) incapable of looking away from the tab."

So that's a big deal.

Frankly, I'm impressed by anyone who comes to banjo as their first instrument and so has to learn both banjo and music at the same time.  When I took my first banjo lessons at 22, I'd already been playing guitar for 9 years. While I wasn't great, I had enough of an ear to recognize chord progressions and figure out or immediately play along with any song.  I could even fingerpick a little.  In fact, when I started banjo lessons, I could already form the F and D shape chords, C, and the Em and Am and their variants.  But I had absolutely no clue what to do with my right hand; I was stuck in "Puff pattern" which is not much use on banjo.  So for me, the initial point of banjo lessons was to learn the mechanics of playing banjo, then the vocabulary of bluegrass banjo and combine that with what I already knew of chords and chord progressions.

I learned the mechanics and vocabulary from tab, from teachers showing me, from records, and from other players at a weekly jam (where I spent more time watching than playing).

But I digress.  My comments were directed more to others who have spoken less kindly about tab.

I know you're happy that you can do things without tab.  That "lightbulb moment" you had from the Jens Kruger video happened because you were ready for it. Not because the tab was keeping you from it.  Wouldn't you agree?

Old Hickory - Posted - 07/14/2011:  13:31:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rich Weill

A very strong case can be made that tab "is, was and always will" misrepresent the rhythm of songs it "transmits" -- and has changed the rhythm of these songs for the worse as a result. .. banjo music has become progressively less bouncy and more metronomic as players conformed their playing to the simplified, even-value way in which tab represented (or, rather, misrepresented) the notes of a measure.

---

I understand what you're saying and can agree to some extent.

I think it's possible, however, to write tab that conveys the same amount of rhythmic subtlety that can be conveyed in standard notation.  To the extent that standard notation doesn't require every measure of 4/4 to contain 8 equal 8th notes, then tab doesn't need to, either. If something is better conveyed with tied notes or rests, sometimes with 16ths or 32nds, that can be written in tab.  I'd say that not all writers of tab know how to do that and even fewer readers of tab would know how to read it.  But I'd agree that it's difficult or tricky to do, that it's rarely done, and so -- to that extent -- tab does not always convey exactly how something is played.

But it's not the tab's fault if a player doesn't listen to an original source recording to understand how a piece really goes and what the tab is trying to convey.

I don't know that I've heard enough players to say that banjo playing has changed as a result of this possible deficiency in tablature.

phb - Posted - 07/14/2011:  14:10:58

I would like to again comment that in my opinion memorising tabs can be a good first step away from tabs. Because of the large number of notes you will have to reduce the amount of information to memorise it all. In order to memorise a tab efficiently you will have to do just what Rich Weill described: first you look at the chord progression to see how many measures there are for each chord. If you know that there are so and so many measures with a D chord, you are not going to play in the up-the-neck G position. You analyse the tune looking for the basic structure like A and B parts. Then you will have to memorise which type of roll or lick is played in which measure. Where the melody notes are (rolling over a D chord having an A on the first note, a B note somewhere in the middle and then a C note would give away that the melody ascends and is just that and the remaining notes are the filler notes) and which notes will get some additional accentuation by making them quarter notes. If you can do all that, you can start to exchange rolls and licks for others a.s.o.

Well, I hope this works because this is what I am doing... :)