quote:

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Originally posted by Tractor1

It is good to see you "classic guys " hanging around here a bit--we have had some-- that posted vids here of the music from those older books namely
Tim Twiss
banjohangout.org/my/banjosnapper
and
Ian
banjohangout.org/my/thereallyniceman

It would be nice to resurrect them

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The request is that we have a tenancy agreement for a place to permanently hang out. Here would do just fine if a new sign was put up. We would happily keep the house painted, the grass cut, the mail brought in and the neighbours seem friendly and keen to come round for barbecue and a beer.
Though at the moment it still feels more like we're squatting. ;-)

I have nothing to add to the etymological and historical aspects of the discussion here.. But I want to talk about 5-string banding today. It seems to me that two subcultures have developed. One (can we call it oldtime?). appreciates pick-free playing on open back banjos, maybe with skin heads-- downstroke, 2 finger, three finger. They like to play fiddle tunes. This subculture came to full fruition in the 1950s-60s "folk revival.
The other subculture includes people who grew up liking (or later discovered) Earl Scruggs and his innovative style. This subculture appreciates the use of Earl's techniques on Gibson Mastertone resonator banjos or the many others that are substantially variationss of the Mastertone. This subculture stems from Earl's playing in Bill Monroe's band. The core repertoroire was a few oldtime songs, newly written songs about love and rural life, plus a few songs from other genres. For example Earl popularized his banjo version of Farewell Blues, a New Orleans funeral song. The use of songs from other genres, country to jazz to rock to classical has grown. Bela Fleck and a few others play classical music 3-finger style. Some have coopted jazz and big band instrumentals, such as Waiting for the Sunrise and Duke Ellington's Caravan.

So here's the point. What used to be the bluegrass subculture has expanded into enough other genres that it makes little sense to call it "bluegrass" now. A particular version of 3 finger picking with picks is still appreciated, but the repertoire has expanded far beyond the core of 80 years ago.

the only style I play that came from bluegrass roots is melodic style- I did start off right out of Earl's book and learned 3 or four by heart --but for the things I wanted to play --along with - my weakness --I needed more melody than what Earl was able to ''do more with less on-- but I saw the things Earl was staying clear of--and adapted --some  of his avoidances--  I have finally found were holding me back (different hand )--but I did get the rolls (arpeggios) from his book--If I have a long clear spot in a melody I will slap it in--and those type of fills were around-- long before that--of course the forward motion roll is the top dog for--'' up tempo ,make a point'' playing--but their status is not so strong in slower gears--so the pattern-- can explore rhythms more
I play melody with filler patterns--on some on other dense melodies I play melodic/keith style--A lot of the standards of many genres got that way --because of -the magic in the melody
my opinion I ask no agreement

to nod to the classic  picking crowd--I think there is a lot of shared tunes that could be mixed -ragtime and time honored vocals show up in both

Genre is focused on identity. Typically the elements are straightforward to describe because visibility is a key function. Where it all becomes a lot less straightforward is individual relationship, if any, to that identity. Geography further complicates that relationship. For non-Americans the inescapable core reality is that Bluegrass and 'Old Time' are American forms. They are not 'our' musical forms and even if replicating the sound on a resonator or open-back 5-string,  the indigenous roots, history, and culture place non-American activity as 'cultural borrowing'.

Whereas technique, which is what we’re looking at in this thread, is something a player either utilizes or not, and use of one doesn’t necessarily preclude use of one or more of the other techniques. Finger-style is unique in banjo terms because it's history and development is a genuinely Trans-Atlantic phenomenon from which we derive both an American indigenous tradition and a British indigenous tradition. Cross-fertilisation and aspects that are distinct ( an example being English 6 and 7-string banjos).

Are we still discussing “what is finger style playing “?
I think that talking about Earl and bluegrass only serves to inform us of what it isn’t.
Not that I’m in charge here, and given the makeup of BHO it’s not surprising that things move in that direction.

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

Are we still discussing “what is finger style playing “?
I think that talking about Earl and bluegrass only serves to inform us of what it isn’t.
Not that I’m in charge here, and given the makeup of BHO it’s not surprising that things move in that direction.

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I've tried to respond Lew's post while steering a line of how finger-style relates to this modern commercially driven 'branding' of genre.

Does finger style pre -date commercially driven branding of genre? I honestly don’t know.

i am not ashamed --my thread drift tolerance runs pretty high -seems to me this one has morphed pretty well back and forth--I figure what i said describes one lesser person's finger style --
what something is not --sometimes a padded punch at what it must be - or at least it narrows the chances

quote:

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

Does finger style pre -date commercially driven branding of genre? I honestly don’t know.

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Comparing 1850 and 1860's America and Britain with today's society where the influence and reach of commerce and consumerism permeates every aspect of our environment is like comparing chalk and cheese. The bricks of urbanisation were still clay in the ground.. 'Mass communication' was the broadsheet newspaper and the letter post. 
The public had not been subject to the modern science of categorisation by purchasing and leisure preference and its consequent 'targeting'.

But its long continuous history means that finger-style was subject to all the social change of the 20th century. It can be cogently argued that the 'Classic' label is a product of a post-war genre-conscious era. The subsequent selective 'framing' of finger-style activity and the particular focus on and preoccupation with identifiable, high-profile 'star' or celebrity proponents has all the hallmarks of genre. Not to any sophisticated extent; but nonetheless a product of our new post-war fame-obsessed world and behaviours.

A huge subject. Apologies for my  absurd and threadbare attempt to cover 170+ years in a thread post!

Stolen from the net --

The Cultural Journey of Genre

“Genre” has played a significant role in shaping the way we consume and critique artistic works. In literature, it distinguishes between fiction and nonfiction, poetry and prose, and various narrative styles. In cinema, genres help audiences navigate storytelling traditions, from horror and comedy to science fiction and drama. The concept of genre has also expanded into music, where classifications like jazz, rock, and classical help define distinct sonic characteristics. Throughout history, genres have evolved as cultural and artistic movements intersect, demonstrating the fluid nature of classification in the arts.
Copilot Search Branding
Major Music Genres in America by Decade

American music has evolved dramatically over the 20th and 21st centuries, shaped by cultural diversity, technological change, and shifting social movements. Here’s a decade-by-decade overview of the most influential genres:

1900s – Ragtime and Vaudeville dominated, with ragtime paving the way for jazz Rate Your Music.
1910s – Ragtime remained top, with Dixieland and Blues emerging Rate Your Music.
1920s – Blues was central, alongside Dixieland (early jazz) and Vocal Jazz Rate Your Music.
1930s – Transition from blues to jazz; Swing and Vocal Jazz led Rate Your Music.
1940s – Jazz and country music flourished Rate Your Music.
1950s – Jazz (including hard bop, cool, modal) remained dominant, with Rock & Roll and Rockabilly entering the mainstream Rate Your Music+1.
1960s – Pop Rock and the Beatles’ influence defined the decade Rate Your Music.
1970s – The rock era: Progressive Rock (e.g., Pink Floyd) topped charts, alongside metal, punk, and disco Rate Your Music.
1980s – Close battle between Post-Punk and Metal (thrash, heavy) Rate Your Music.
1990s – Alternative Rock surged, with East Coast Hip Hop also prominent Rate Your Music.
2000s – Indie Rock led, with Alternative Rock as runner-up Rate Your Music.
2010s – Indie Rock still top, but Art Pop, Progressive Metal, and multiple hip-hop subgenres shared dominance

Rob MacKillop has many examples of this music on his channel. If anyone stimulated my interest in that direction, he might be the one.

What Lew says is correct, but I would argue for looking at the expansion of bluegrass into newgrass / progressive bluegrass followed by the playing of non-bluegrass repertoire (e.g., classical, jazz) with a bluegrass setup/technique as an asynchronous parallel to fingerstyle banjo in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Some of the underlying spirit is the same, but they represent largely separate musical lineages separated by time, culture, and technology. There is some irony, however, in players from that latter lineage not looking to the past. Fingerstyle banjoists did it all long before anyone thought to take bluegrass banjo in a more progressive/experimental direction. 

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

Rob MacKillop has many examples of this music on his channel. If anyone stimulated my interest in that direction, he might be the one.

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Rob's videos were what got me interested in classic banjo. 

banjoboyd I got in a hurry, and realized I had left off any mention of newgrass as a sub-genre, or a movement that divided bluegrass into two camps, traditional and newgrass. SO thanks for mentioning it. It's interesting that several of the people in newgrass or incorporating jazz, rock, etc initially were from the northeast, while the early traditionalists--the founders--were from the southeast. I was trying to say that "bluegrass" has pickers branching out in different directions so much that the name bluegrass doesn't apply, so some are saying "3 finger picker."

quote:

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

Rob MacKillop has many examples of this music on his channel. If anyone stimulated my interest in that direction, he might be the one.

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Rob is a fine musician with a keen sense of historical relevance.

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

Does finger style pre -date commercially driven branding of genre? I honestly don’t know.

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One could argue that the banjo as we know it (5 strings, round rim, flat fingerboard, tuning pegs, etc) was commercially driven branding of genre from the moment it was put into from in the early 1840s for use on the minstrel stage. 

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Originally posted by Joel Hooks

quote:

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

Does finger style pre -date commercially driven branding of genre? I honestly don’t know.

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One could argue that the banjo as we know it (5 strings, round rim, flat fingerboard, tuning pegs, etc) was commercially driven branding of genre from the moment it was put into from in the early 1840s for use on the minstrel stage. 

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Early American touring minstrel troupes were keenly aware of commercial opportunity. That is the single reason they crossed the Atlantic. Minstrelsy was quite clearly a new and defined (to the point of formulaic) entertainment genre and a hugely popular attraction in mid-Victorian Britain. That formula met an audience expectation and that was fundamental to its success.

Sellers have advertised their wares since trading began. Every small banjo maker that subsequently set up in business advertised in the local press or by word-of-mouth. However, the entertainment l genre-category of minstrelsy did not give rise to the social aspect of a culture in which people identified with minstrelsy or incorporated participation as part of 'who they are'. The Victorian large paying audience (and their newly purpose-built venues) was itself a new phenomenon; a product of urbanisation and the way radical changes to employment affected people's living patterns. That is not in any meaningful sense comparable with the 20th century expansion of genre beyond simple category, when we see the sophisticated construction and inter-relationship of genre and identity, culture and sub-culture.

A young Victorian clerk in Bethnal Green, performing a couple of banjo solos or duets at a 'smoker' or benefit concert in front of a local audience, was engaged in the universal pursuit of self-entertainment. Filling an evening pleasurably among people they knew, maybecmaking a bit of a local reputation as a fine entertainer. He or she had no 'identity' invested in other banjo players beyond their immediate neighbourhood. 

The catalyst for association beyond one’s local neighbourhood was sound technology: the wax cylinder, shellac disc and wireless.

The rapid growth of a music industry with volume sales that entailed the shift from performer to product. 

Blackface era is one common description I see-- on up thru vauldeville
I really don't see new music and modern marketing -- throwing out a new genre--It is so diverse and too many variations --''a large enough crowd of folks won't materialize-- that is-a group big enough to -- cause a new global genre--the net and digital age reworked it --from the ground up--music is marketed with ways ,that differ from yesteryear

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Originally posted by EEB

The catalyst for association beyond one’s local neighbourhood was sound technology: the wax cylinder, shellac disc and wireless.

The rapid growth of a music industry with volume sales that entailed the shift from performer to product. 

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So what is this 3000 lbs of paper I have?

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Originally posted by Joel Hooks

quote:

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Originally posted by EEB

The catalyst for association beyond one’s local neighbourhood was sound technology: the wax cylinder, shellac disc and wireless.

The rapid growth of a music industry with volume sales that entailed the shift from performer to product. 

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So what is this 3000 lbs of paper I have?

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Commercial sheet music and music journalism has a lineage back into the 18th century. In the U.K. 'Music for the Millions' was established by the 1840's and made song and dance music notation affordable for people on a working wage. This and many similar titles were an exact fit with the movement aimed at improving' the activities that people engaged in. Probably top of the vices to be countered was alcohol. Though paradoxically, through the requirement to apply to renew venue licenses public dancing and music was also  tightly controlled.  The growth of publishing also coincided with the advent of statutory education. Though earlier non-statutory schools, in particular the nationwide 'British School' system were the source of musical literacy among many working class musicians.  A reality that is evident in many 19th century compositions for finger-style banjo by banjo players and a curious feature that you have referred to here.

None of which relates to genre-as-identity. We see the first glimmer of that social change in the 1890's.

Not sure where this is going in relation to the OP?  Also, probably a digression from our request for a  finger-style playing space?

Here I go thread drifting a bit--but still in banjo music history--This site made available manuscript books from the 1700s on --I studied some--from time to time I ran across ones -that stood the test of time--Mostly linear fiddle tune types---These folks program them in the abc format --robotic but listenable enough to get the melody--they talk about genres also
village-music-project.org.uk/?page_id=84

Can some one suggest some classic style versions of the old fiddle tunes or vocal tunes that are still around --

you guys might pull off getting them to pin a thread titled Fingerstyle at the top of this one --it would serve the same purpose -- as far as this site the perks  would be the same--

quote:

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Originally posted by Tractor1

Here I go thread drifting a bit--but still in banjo music history--This site made available manuscript books from the 1700s on --I studied some--from time to time I ran across ones -that stood the test of time--Mostly linear fiddle tune types---These folks program them in the abc format --robotic but listenable enough to get the melody--they talk about genres also
village-music-project.org.uk/?page_id=84

Can some one suggest some classic style versions of the old fiddle tunes or vocal tunes that are still around --

you guys might pull off getting them to pin a thread titled Fingerstyle at the top of this one --it would serve the same purpose -- as far as this site the perks  would be the same--

 

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The Village Music Project do great work collating source manuscripts and original fiddler's tune books. These are traditional English social dance tunes; many jigs, hornpipes, polkas, schottisches, gallopades and quadrilles.

The online notation is downloadable in either ABC or PDF format.

A finger-style banjo version can be played directly from this notation or transposed into a more banjo-friendly key. It is particularly easy to transpose the many D tunes to C.

There are recorded examples, notation and tab for a number of traditional English dance tunes freely available on the Early English Banjo pages that you previously found your way to. If you need help finding what you want, just let me know.

I have worked up a few of them in keith style but I wondered how the classic players approached them--would they usually-- only play the notation ?

I went to the classic banjo site --those folks are tops-- talented and musical in the playing and writing--I was hoping to find some tunes I recognized --but very little in that vein--thanks